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contradictory passages concerning Salvation....

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by michel, Jun 26, 2005.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    The Bible does have seemingly contradictory passages concerning Salvation....

    1. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will condemned."
    (Mark 16:16)

    ..........The man asked him, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?"

    You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother…Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
    (Luke 18:18-22)

    3.He chose us …before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight… he predestined us
    (Ephesians 1:4-6)

    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on G-d's mercy.

    For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore G-d has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    One of you will say to me: "Then why does G-d still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to G-d? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
    (Romans 9:13-21)

    1. Mark said that if you believed in Jesus and were baptized, you would be saved. There's no mention of obeying commandments or giving up your money.
    2. Luke said that if you obeyed the commandments and gave up your riches to the poor, you would be saved. There's no mention of believing Jesus or being baptized.

    If G-d really did want us to believe that we could be saved by believing in Jesus, being baptized, obeying the commandments, and giving up our money to the poor, why didn't he use his infinite powers to make sure that Mark and Luke each gave us the same message? The answer appears to be that the two writers had different backgrounds and different beliefs about what the "word of G-d" was.
    The problem is much worse than this, however, as can be seen in the third column in the table above.

    3. Paul says that no matter what man does, he cannot alter G-d's plan for him. G-d predestined each man either to be cast into the fiery pits, or else to live evermore in his kingdom of heaven. Nothing man can do can change his fate. Sincere faith and all the good works in the world will not save the man who's been predestined by G-d to be one of the "pots" for common use, who will be cast aside. Likewise, nothing man does can prevent himself from being saved, for he was created a "noble" pot, and his fate was sealed long before, at the time of creation!

    Why did G-d deliberately make flawed men whom he would cast aside, while making "noble" ones who would enter heaven, no matter what they did? Well, according to Paul, G-d does this for the same reason he made the Pharaoh flawed: so that G-d could rain plagues down on him to show off for the people his great power. For that same reason, Paul said,G-d makes men flawed who will not be saved, no matter what might be their "desire or effort," all for the purpose of having an excuse to cast them into the pits of hell to show off to the people how powerful he is.

    What a preposterous, childish notion Paul had about his god! Why should a being who is infinitely powerful have to put on a display of his powers? If he wanted mankind to behave in a certain way, why could he not have just made it happen with his infinite powers? If putting fear of G-d into the minds of mankind really were the intention of this god, why could not this infinitely powerful being have just embedded into the DNA of all humans at conception an innate and instinctive awareness of the great power of G-d , and an instinctive understanding of G-d 's messages? The all-powerful G-d described in the Bible would have had the power to do that, wouldn't he?

    Thus, Luke contradicts Mark, and Paul contradicts both Mark and Luke, with a ridiculous teaching about G-d 's need to display his power. Mark and Luke teach that man can be saved by faith, baptism (Mark), or by obeying the commandments and giving up wealth (Luke). In other words, Mark and Luke teach that man's desire and efforts could lead them to salvation, but Paul says that man's fate was sealed at the time of creation, and that their salvation does NOT depend on "man's desire or effort."



    Taken fom Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible by Joseph Francis Alward

    What Gives? why the contradictions?:confused:
     
  2. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    On Luke, it left out that Jesus said to follow Him as well, then when the man could not, Jesus said a it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, people asked who then could be saved? Jesus said what is impossible for man, is possible for God. It is impossible for a man to save himself, yet God can save us all :D .
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    OK, but there's another coincidental 'hiccup'

    18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?​
    18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with G-d.​
    Then:-
    Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of G-d.​


    Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of G-d.

    Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of G-d.

    Now which is it, the camel or the man?:biglaugh:
     
  4. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Huh??
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    OK; I'm apparently reading man for Camel - time for another injection.......
    They're coming to take me away hahah..........:eek:
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I still can't quite get to grips with the differences:-

    1."Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will condemned."
    (Mark 16:16)

    2.You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother…Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
    (Luke 18:18-22)

    3.Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    This was said to Moses in response to Moses' request to see the glory of G-d (Exodus 33:19). Since there are none who merit salvation, there are none who are fit (or who can make themselves fit) to be in G-d's immediate presence. Therefore, it is entirely by G-d's mercy that any at all are saved, and He surely has the divine right by creation to show mercy on whomever He will (Romans 9:16).

    1.concentrates on Baptism
    2.on ten commandements
    3.on G-d's own decision on whom he will have compassion.:confused:
     
  7. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    When I pressed my bible teacher, he said something like this: the people that are pre-destined to go to not be saved, will never choose to do so, as they are apparently dependent events. Sort of like the unpardonable sin, being unpardonable because it is the rejection of salvation. I would say that it's just another example of the bible making no sense (what I've come to expect), but thats just me :)
     
  8. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    A baptism of spirit and fire occurs when you accept Jesus.

    The word kleronomeo
    to receive a lot, receive by lot
    a) esp. to receive a part of an inheritance, receive as an inheritance, obtain by right of inheritance


    b) to be an heir, to inherit

    2) to receive the portion assigned to one, receive an allotted portion, receive as one's own or as a possession

    3) to become partaker of, to obtain



    If you wish to obtain by right eternal life, you must follow the Law, must give your wealth, and follow Jesus. This is impossible for a man to do, but with God you can gain eternal life.



    Yes, God's grace.
     
  9. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    You're right that does make no sense, why would God make someone who must reject salvation - by His own design - and then condemn that person for it.

    Mich - you found contradictory passages in the bible, my word! ;)

    Each book has a different author, each author had his own views and interpretations, and many of the authors are separated by centuries - is it really any surprise that they contradict each other in places? If there was no contradiction, there would be no denominations and no confusion between followers.
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I think the whole dilemma gets back to a correct understanding of what is meant by "salvation" in the first place. Justification is not the same thing as redemption and most Christians simply use the word "salvation" as synonym for both words. This is why so many people cannot seem to agree as to whether we are saved by grace through faith alone as opposed to being saved by grace through faith coupled with works. There is, quite simply a whole range of meanings for the word "salvation." The scriptures teach us that "as in Adam all die... in Christ shall all be made alive." Right there you have salvation in its most all-inclusive, most basic form -- salvation from the permanance of death, for virtually everyone, believers and non-believers, Christians and non-Christians, the righteous and the wicked. At the other end of the scale is exaltation, or eternal life in God's presence, which definitely involves obedience to God's commandments and receiving the saving priesthood ordinances that are a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I see no contradiction between the various scriptures at all, but then I'm looking at the subject from an entirely different perspective than you are.
     
  11. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    There are no contradictions about salvation, salvation is a gift of God by faith, both testaments agree. The seeming contradictions come from context, questions, and application. The rich young Ruler is a specific question and answer, Jesus knowing his heart, told him to have faith, but his faith was in his possessions, those like him, the comment, "harder for a rich man"
    Keeping the commandments are never a salvation issue, so drop it in this discussion.
    Faith, brings grace and salvation, salvation and faith, obedience, then comes election for good works. Reward. Crowns or whatever you want to call it. 2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
     
  12. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    I understand your point on context, but it clearly says different things that can only be reconsiled through subjectively examining the "context", how can absolute judgement come out of interpritive speculation? Doesn't that sound a little shady? I've been told essentially "you're going to hell because of my personal extrapolative studies" and it sounded absurd.
     
  13. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    As far as the part of salvation, means you are redeemed from, as you call it, hell, for the redeemed they have eternal life, so absolute judgement comes to those who are not saved.
    One only suffers the second death if he is incorageable, wicked, evil and unsaved.
    The one that says you will go to hell "because of my personal extrapolative studies" has a great need of a strong laxative, IMO.
    Isn't it odd that the ones who say they are most devout consign many to hell for trying to learn truth. Keep on studying, serious study never hurt anyone.
     
  14. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    so if i am not evil, but not saved, do i go to hell? i.e. my name is Ghandi
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    You can be saved/redeemed by believing the Bible/Word of God. Sin is transgression of the Torah/Word of God, all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, we need a redeemer, God offers it to all who believe and obey. So good works without FAITH is of no avail. It is believe and obey.
    If you do not believe and obey after hearing the Torah, you have chosen the second death.
     
  16. leesw

    leesw New Member

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    Presdestination is against God's nature. He wouldn't create something and comdemn it for it's nature. That would make God a respector of persons. It's a man-made theory that is way off.

    As far as salvation...why not just do all that the New Testament tells us. Believe, Repent, Confess, Be Baptized, and follow Jesus. Why try to pick one or two and toss the others?
     
  17. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    It's like a spiritual engine...

    Blessed are those with spark; for theirs is an engine that runs.
    Unless thou hast goodly compression thou shalt in no wise starteth thine engine.
    Yea, verily I say to you, but unless your octane exceeds that of the Pharisees you will by no means cross the finish line first.

    There ya go... three completely different things that are needed to start your engine. They don't contradict unless you don't understand how engines work.
     
  19. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    You have to take those scriptures within the context of that particular passage. Regarding the rich man, Jesus knew that it would be hard for him to give up everything to follow him, henceforth, He used a hyperbole (I may not be spelling this right) to emphasize to the disciples that it would be more difficult for a rich man to enter into heaven than for a camel to walk through a needle. The man loved his possessions more than he loved the Lord. Romans 10:9,10 is an excellent passage that puts salvation into context (confess and believe!) :)
     
  20. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Are you making the assumption that God is not all-knowing? That He did not know since the beginning of creation of who would accept Him or reject Him through the free will He gave to us? I truly believe He did know and it was predestined. He is the Sovereign God and we are in no position to question His power or His sovereignty. :)
     
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