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Featured Contradictions Challenge

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Earthling, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Jewish Antiquities, I, 123 [vi, 1]

    In Classical Greek and Roman writings the term Scythian applied to northern barbarians.

    Encyclopaedia Britannica (Vol. 20, p. 235) - “throughout classical literature Scythia generally meant all regions to the north and northeast of the Black sea, and a Scythian (Skuthes) any barbarian coming from those parts.”

    The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge - “The name ‘Scythians’ was among the ancients an elastic appellation, and so was the Hebrew ‘Magog.’” - Edited by S. Jackson, 1956, Vol. V, p. 14.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I was taught it was Lydia is Turkey.. Anyway, they invaded Syria and coastal Palestine in 628 and some veterans stayed behind to build a town called Scythopolis. Most scholars think they are Gog and Magog who terrified everyone by arriving on horseback using composite bows,

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  3. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I was taught that Gog was the leader of a multinational attack on God's people, as Ezekiel 38 - 39 indicates (Ezekiel 38:2; Ezekiel 38:15). The meaning of the word is uncertain, though there was also a descendant or Reuben named Gog. (1 Chronicles 5:3-4) Gog was the great prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezekiel 38:2-3). Some translations read "Rosh, Meshech and Tubal but Rosh is Hebrew for "head" which indicates a reference to a country or people. Incidentally, Meshech, Tubal and Magog are all names given to the sons of Japheth. (Genesis 10:2)

    Meshech seems to have an extended application to the descendants of Japheth's son who resided North of Palestine. (Ezekiel 27:13; Ezekiel 32:26; Ezekiel 38:2-3 and Ezekiel 39:1-2) or a barbarous people at Psalms 120:5.

    Assyrian inscriptions composed about a thousand years after the flood refer to the Mushku people who occupied an area in Asia Minor to the west of Assyria. Assyrian Emperors Tiglath-pileser I, Tukulti-Ninurta II, Ashurnasirpal II, and Sargon all make references to conflicts with the Mushku. Since that word is often mentioned with the Tabalu it is evident that they are referring to the Biblical Meshech and Tubal. Scholars suggest that Mushku is associated with the Phrygians of western and central Asia Minor around the second millennium B.C.E.. For example King Mita of Muski, whom the Assyrian Emperor Sargon referred to is associated with King Midas of Phrygia who is described in Greek tradition as a ruler in the same period.
     
  4. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I don't think you mentioned Herodotus (III, 94) mention of Tibareni and the Moschi. NE of Cilicia in eastern Asia Minor.
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    This may interest you.

    Who and what are Gog and Magog?

    Gog is a historical man who the Greeks called Gyges of Lydia.

    In Gyges of Lydia we have the leader the Assyrians called “Gugu, King of Ludu,” and “Gugu of Magugu,” who is referred to in the Bible as Gog of Magog.

    “Magog” simply means “the land of Gog.” In Akkadian ma means land, so in Akkadian Ma- gugu means “the land of Gugu,” which becomes our Ma-gog. (Just as the Assyrian eponym for the land of the leader called Zamua is rendered as Ma-zamua).

    Magog is an eponym for the ancient nation of Lydia that was in the westernmost part of Asia Minor.

    The Assyrians often referred to a new land by the name of the first leader they learned of from this land. The Assyrians dealt with Lydia through Meshech, who were subsequently defeated by Gomer, and thus the Assyrians finally came to deal with Lydia directly.

    In the prophecy of Ezekiel 38/39 Gog is being used as a “historical type” of the “antichrist” who is prophesied to come during the end times, and Magog is being used as a “historical type” of “the land of the antichrist.”

    New Scientific Evidence for God: Debunking the Russia/War of Gog and Magog Myth
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Daniel I. Block, a professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois in The Book of Ezekiel writes,

    “The popular identification of Tubal with Tubolsk in Russia (H. Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth 1970, p.53) is ludicrous . . . The popular identification of Meshech with Moscow (of Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth p.53) is absurd.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    In his book The Antiquity of the Jews Josephus says that the Greeks called the “Magogites” the “Scythians” despite the fact that the Greeks did not call the Magogites the Scythians. In this same passage there are other errors in the identification of other ancient nations of Asia Minor.

    This passage shows that the author did not understand that Ashkenaz is the Hebrew word for the Scythians.

    (Interestingly, the Assyrian word for the Scythians, Ishkuza or Ashguza is similar to the Hebrew word for the Scythians – Ashkenaz.) This passage also comes into conflict with what the ancient Greek historian Herodotus who after living with each group wrote about the Scythians and the Lydians in his book The History. Since Josephus used Herodotus’ book as a reference, one can only speculate how and why these obviously wrong statements are in Josephus’ book.

    Were these inaccurate statements the products of Josephus’ imagination, or were they the result of alterations to the few copies of Josephus’ work that existed in medieval times? (Jews did not preserve the writings of Josephus because they considered him to be a traitor.) Beginning in the 11th century these surviving manuscripts were copied by Catholic monks, and obviously altered in some places to suit prevailing beliefs.

    Ecclesiastical acceptance of the erroneous connection between Magog and the Scythians traces back to Saint Jerome of the late fourth century AD. Unfortunately, the oft quoted statement that has Josephus connecting Magog with the Scythians is an act of document forgery.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Pliny on page 439 actually wrote: “Bambyx (a part of Lydia) the other name of which is Hierapolis, but by the Syrians called Magog.”


    Pliny’s statement has been misquoted by Cumming in a way that makes it seem that Magog was related to the Scythians rather than the Lydians.

    Unfortunately, this same misquote of Pliny has been carried forward in time and appears in Hal Lindsey’s book The Late Great Planet Earth (page 53).

    This alteration is easily verified by going to a copy of Pliny’s book and seeing how key words were changed and switched around. It is difficult to believe that none of the many authors of books that discuss Ezekiel 38/39 and the war of Gog and Magog have not discovered this sleight of hand and exposed the deception.

    (While many contemporary Evangelicals gave Cumming’s books on prophecy favorable reviews, an article in the Westminster Review in 1855 about Cumming attacked him for his “intellectual dishonesty, anti-Catholic bigotry, and moral and spiritual perversion.”)
     
  9. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Gyges, king of Lydia in western Asia Minor (referred to as Guggu in the Assyrian records of Ashurbanipal; See Ancient Records of Assyria and Babylonia, by D. Luckenbill, 1927, Vol. II, pp. 297, 351, 352) has been associated with Gog, but he died decades before Ezekiel wrote his prophecy.

    So, yeah, your apparent placement of Magog as a specific formerly existent place is uncertain at best, as far as the Bible's usage goes. It is more likely a Messianic Kingdom reference of a multinational force in the future. Daniel and Revelation would clearly seem to concur.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The correct identification of Magog with Lydia and not Scythia is consistent with the ancient texts of the Assyrians, who at various times were either the allies or the foes of the Scythians, but had peaceful dealings with the Lydians, who they also referred to as “Magog.”

    Within academia today, no professional archeologists, historians or serious Bible researchers associate Magog with the Scythians or the Scythians with the Russians.

    The truth is that modern scholars have unequivocally documented that a group of Scandinavian Viking traders called the Rus began the Russian state during the mid AD 800's, and gave their name to Russia. Therefore there is no historical or factual basis for any connection of Russia to Magog.

    New Scientific Evidence for God: Debunking the Russia/War of Gog and Magog Myth

    ( Looks like I got it wrong too)
     
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  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Here's the kicker.

    Historians know migrants from Lydia called the Etruscans took control of the population of central Italy and put them on the fast track to becoming the powerful Roman Empire.

    The Etruscans were responsible for the urbanization of Rome, as well as its army and its economic advancement. See modern Tuscany.....
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Ah, Esau that hairy man &c. But our friend @The Anointed is trying to reconcile black and white ─ two genealogies from David to Joseph each with different names and one with twice as many intervening generations as the other, for a man who, say Matthew and Luke, isn't Jesus' father anyway, and a Jesus who, says Mark, explicitly denies descent from David.

    Perhaps when he's finished he'll use his experience to produce a corrected genealogy of Dumbledore for us.
     
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  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Fancy thinking that if there were an historical Jesus at all, anyone knew his true genealogy while knowing nothing else biographical about him ─ let alone two irreconcilable genealogies to connect him to David, when he expressly denies in Mark that he's descended from David at all.

    Enjoy!
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. Gog and Magog are in modern day Turkey not Russia. Anyway, I have personal opinion that there is only one war of Gog and Magog not two. Most Christians and Bible scholars believe there will be two such wars. However, I believe the war of Gog/Magog mentioned in Revelation is the same as mentioned in the old Testament.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I don't think he understands what he posts.

    Now Pat Robertson has said if you put a Buddha on your lawn you are worshipping idols and false gods (Buddha isn't a god)
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Me too.. happened in the past.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But how can you take Pat seriously these days? For example, when he called for Chavez to be murdered, no one stepped forward.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    He sure did. Why do Americans continued to send him money? She should be tarred and feathered.

    Quit listening to these false prophets. Hold them accountable for their failed
    predictions.

    When it comes to eschatology, the following men are false teachers:

    Tim LaHaye

    Jack Van Impe

    Grant Jeffrey

    David Jeremiah

    Ed Hindson

    John Hagee

    John MacArthur

    Hal Lindsey

    Pat Robertson

    Billy Graham

    Franklin Graham

    David Reagan
     
  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    [
    Not only do you prove that you lack the ability, to comprehend anything recorded in the scriptures, but you cannot comprehend anything that you even read.

    Now read the following VERY, VERY slowly and try to concentrate on what is being said.

    Matthew records the genealogy of Joseph the son of Jacob, who Married Mary after she had become pregnant to her half brother 'Joseph the son of Heli.' Have you got that? Think hard before continuing.

    Joseph the son of Jacob, married the already pregnant Mary and had no sexual relations with her until she had given birth to the first of her sons 'Jesus', and Joseph the son of Jacob is a descendant of David, through Solomon the youngest of Bathsheba's four sons. Now have you got that?

    So now we will move on to Joseph the son of Alexander Helios, who is also called 'HELI.' Heli had a son named Joseph before he Married Hanna, from who he sired a daughter named Mary. Got that mate?

    This Joseph the son of Heli, coupled with his 14 year old half sister Mary, who conceived the child Jesus. Now this Joseph the son of Heli, is a descendant of King David, through Nathan the elder brother of Solomon, and the third son of Bathsheba, who is an adopted son of King David.

    But still, you believe that Joseph the son of Jacob, and Joseph the son of Heli, from two completely different genetic lines, are one and the same man. Please reveal how anyone in their right mind could come to that conclusion?
     
    #239 The Anointed, Mar 21, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I've got a little list, like Ko-Ko the headsman, eh? Ah, but who hasn't?
     
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