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Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will address your posts tomorrow. I want to read them as I did before. Although they are lengthy. Don't be mad cause I don't instantly reply.
Are you kidding? I don't expect most people to read many of my posts because they are too long (I really do try to be brief, but I always fail). The fact that you wish to take the time to read them is both a compliment for me (in that I am grateful you consider them worth reading) and to you (for taking the time and effort to read a lengthy post rather than simply ignoring it).
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
Interesting findings. Seems these research studies continue proving themselves correct. I see this in the comments here and elsewhere.







http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201104/conservatives-big-fear-brain-study-finds

Conservatism is inextricably linked with fear. Fear is the means needed to maintain control, which is entirely what conservatism is all about. The militant reactions from the Right as of late to anything that would make society a better place directly reflect that control waning away.

To answer a troll question that I know this post will receive, liberals have flawed messengers carrying a sensible message. Conservatives have flawed messengers carrying a flawed message.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
However, as we can't ignore all the mistakes, we can focus on the fact that Colin Firth was excellent in the TV mini-series Pride and Prejudice. And he's not bad looking either.
I understand where you're coming from with the different fields mingling together etc, but I think we're focusing on the wrong things here.
The authors of the current biology article were put together to write a story on this relation between the right amygdala and the ACC. The authors weren't the ones doing the research (well 1 was), they referenced many previous studies and arrived at this conclusion. If you look at the Reference tab, you'll see that each statement is essentially referenced from people in the neurology field. The first referenced article has 4 authors and all were in the neurology field.
J.*Neurosci - PubMed - NCBI.[ta]%20AND%2015[vol]%20AND%205879[page]&doptcmdl=Abstract
Same goes for the second reference and so on.
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v10/n10/full/nn1979.html
The focus shouldn't be on the current biology summary or results, but on the references as to why the results were determined.
I hope this makes sense.

Here's the purpose behind Firth's role, etc.
Oscar-winning actor Colin Firth has been credited as one of four co-authors of an academic paper into human brains.
The King's Speech star commissioned the research when he guest edited Radio 4's Today programme in December.
For his edition, he asked scientists to scan the brains of politicians to see if there were any differences depending on political leanings.
The paper, hailed as a "useful contribution", has been published in the journal Current Biology.
Scientist Geraint Rees, from University College London's Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience, initially scanned the brains of Conservative politician Alan Duncan and Labour's Stephen Pound for the Today programme.
He then continued the research with a further 90 participants which found that Liberal and Conservative attitudes were associated with thicker areas of parts of the brain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-13661538
 
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dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Conservatism is inextricably linked with fear. Fear is the means needed to maintain control, which is entirely what conservatism is all about. The militant reactions from the Right as of late to anything that would make society a better place directly reflect that control waning away.

To answer a troll question that I know this post will receive, liberals have flawed messengers carrying a sensible message. Conservatives have flawed messengers carrying a flawed message.

Give me a break. Liberalism has its fair share of controlling components as well. We are YOUR change. We'll take care of YOU, make sure that YOU have what you need. Learned helplessness. People fear that without these ********, they cannot thrive.

Both liberals and conservatives are linked to fear, just in different ways. I don't buy your argument and believe that those of you who buy the bull **** in the OP are over simplifying a complex situation.

I visited a Psychologist to discuss my anxiety and she showed me a powerpoint on the amygdyla and its purpose. She did tell me that a larger amygdyla often suggested that a person was more anxious and this manifests in personality. Behavior therapy can have an impact on the manner in which we respond to our natural flight or fright response.

I find the basis for the study to be kind of silly, as the size of our amygdyla tells us just a snippet of who we are as an individual. Anxiety or a greater propensity for "flight" doesn't translate to being an overall, fearful person. And our self-identified political persuasions are rarely "black and white". We often borrow from other "camps".

Very misleading and unfair. Talk to a professional. Colin Firth can kiss my ***.
 
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Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
Give me a break. Liberalism has its fair share of controlling components as well. We are YOUR change. We'll take care of YOU, make sure that YOU have what you need. Learned helplessness. People fear that without these ********, they cannot thrive.

What the hell did I just read.

Both liberals and conservatives are linked to fear, just in different ways. I don't buy your argument and believe that those of you who buy the bull **** in the OP are over simplifying a complex situation.

I visited a Psychologist to discuss my anxiety and she showed me a powerpoint on the amygdyla and its purpose. She did tell me that a larger amygdyla often suggested that a person was more anxious and this manifests in personality. Behavior therapy can have an impact on the manner in which we respond to our natural flight or fright response.

I find the basis for the study to be kind of silly, as the size of our amygdyla tells us just a snippet of who we are as an individual. Anxiety or a greater propensity for "flight" doesn't translate to being an overall, fearful person. And our self-identified political persuasions are rarely "black and white". We often borrow from other "camps".

Very misleading and unfair. Talk to a professional. Colin Firth can kiss my ***.

Glad you had the courage to see a psychologist. A lot of people who deal with mental health issues do not seek the assistance they need.

There is a lot of fear and anger on both sides, yes. The differences can be complex and nuanced. But I can tell you this much: One side doesn't seem to have much of a problem with an armed rebellion if they don't get their way.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
What the hell did I just read..

Truth.

Glad you had the courage to see a psychologist. A lot of people who deal with mental health issues do not seek the assistance they need.

I agree. But, you assume that I have a mental health issue. I don't. And unlike many people, I am under care for my ailments. I'm mentally well, thank you.

There is a lot of fear and anger on both sides, yes. The differences can be complex and nuanced. But I can tell you this much: One side doesn't seem to have much of a problem with an armed rebellion if they don't get their way.

No **** sherlock. I won't argue that. But, don't try to paint liberals as saints, when they incorporate larger government and implement their own share of "control" which in turn translates to to a different type of fear tactic.

Both parties and their politics utilize control and depend on the of people - their faith and fear, to sustain control. There's no innocence in either camp. Your argument is weak.
 
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tytlyf

Not Religious
No **** sherlock. I won't argue that. But, don't try to paint liberals as saints, when they incorporate larger government and implement their own share of "control" which in turn translates to to a different type of fear tactic.

Both parties and their politics utilize control and depend on the reliance of people to sustain control. There's no innocence in either camp. Your argument is weak.
I think the issue is with these broad gernalizations like "liberal." 40% of the (D) party represents as "liberal." The other portion is recognized as "Moderate."
The term "liberal" has been intentionally demonized by right-wing media to fool the listener into thinking all (D)'s are "Liberal." In other words, a good brain-washing.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Liberals are among the most horrendous control freaks. And agree far from saints.
Fear is their mo. Screw the studies. Look at the reality. Like NY and CALIF.

Bluest states in the union with the highest taxes and lowest freedom. All in the name of their little safety crusades over fear that you might get fat, get smokey lungs, or hurt so they impulsively need to control every aspect of your life and take away every cent you earn so they can horde it all for themselves and spend it on more little safety crusades so they can grab even more money from you.

Liberals fear for loss of control and fear for loss of "revenue". They are the most fearful party on the planet.

Did i mention the children?
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I think the issue is with these broad gernalizations like "liberal." 40% of the (D) party represents as "liberal." The other portion is recognized as "Moderate."
The term "liberal" has been intentionally demonized by right-wing media to fool the listener into thinking all (D)'s are "Liberal." In other words, a good brain-washing.

American Democrats are further right on the political spectrum than the right wing of some European countries.

America doesn't have a very strong "left." Obama would be downright too conservative (as American use the term "conservative") for a lot of countries, for instance -- yet the GOP screeches that he's the most liberal monster ever elected for some reason.

This country is shifted grotesquely to the right, and everything is skewed because of that.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I think the issue is with these broad gernalizations like "liberal." 40% of the (D) party represents as "liberal." The other portion is recognized as "Moderate."
The term "liberal" has been intentionally demonized by right-wing media to fool the listener into thinking all (D)'s are "Liberal." In other words, a good brain-washing.

Honey, I don't disagree with you. This is part of my problem with his argument and yours, to be honest.

I thought it very important to point out that there is a good deal of fear-mongering from all sides of the political spectrum and it's dishonest to deny that it exists. Where there is government, there is control, where there is control...there is fear and manipulation.

But, I agree with you. And would add that conservatism has been demonized by lefties in the same manner.

Political viewpoint is as multi-faceted as personality. And the amygdala is directly related to our personalities and how "fright or flight" is translated through our personality.

You can't label someone "Conservative" or "Liberal" and view the amygdala as a "this size" or "that size" means "this". There are far too many variants and they have to be considered in terms of one's overall personality. Political persuasion is one facet to a multi-facted situation and we know that political persuasion can be multi-faceted in an of itself, do we not? Does that make sense?
 
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tytlyf

Not Religious
I thought it very important to point out that there is a good deal of fear-mongering from all sides of the political spectrum and it's dishonest to deny that it exists. Where there is government, there is control, where there is control...there is fear and manipulation.

But, I agree with you. And would add that conservatism has been demonized by lefties in the same manner.
Would you elaborate on what the (D) side is panic-mongering on the past few years?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Would you elaborate on what the (D) side is panic-mongering on the past few years?

"The corporations! They're all... uh, corporationy! They'll sell out your grandma for $$$!"

Though there are legit concerns about corporate ethics and the GOP's vision for deregulation (which *is* scary), it can be a little overplayed sometimes by dems, which might be called "fearmongering."

I'm just trying to be fair here though, I would agree with you that *BY FAR* the GOP slices 90% of the fearmongering cake.
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
Truth.



I agree. But, you assume that I have a mental health issue. I don't. And unlike many people, I am under care for my ailments. I'm mentally well, thank you.



No **** sherlock. I won't argue that. But, don't try to paint liberals as saints, when they incorporate larger government and implement their own share of "control" which in turn translates to to a different type of fear tactic.

Both parties and their politics utilize control and depend on the of people - their faith and fear, to sustain control. There's no innocence in either camp. Your argument is weak.

Liberals don't talk about hoarding up guns.
Liberals don't talk about overthrowing the United States of America.
Liberals don't talk of violent revolution.
Liberals don't support groups that endorse this kind of crap.

The Far Right has done this. Repeatedly. And I'm not even getting into their whole obsession with conspiracy theories (even though those contribute to the above) and allergies to facts. People have the right to be stupid, but they do not have the right to incite violence.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Liberals don't talk about hoarding up guns.
Liberals don't talk about overthrowing the United States of America.
Liberals don't talk of violent revolution.
Liberals don't support groups that endorse this kind of crap.

The Far Right has done this. Repeatedly. And I'm not even getting into their whole obsession with conspiracy theories (even though those contribute to the above) and allergies to facts. People have the right to be stupid, but they do not have the right to incite violence.

IIRC there have been environmentalist terrorist organizations and the like -- just saying, you're waltzing dangerously into "no true scotsman" territory.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Honey, I don't disagree with you. This is part of my problem with his argument and yours, to be honest.

I thought it very important to point out that there is a good deal of fear-mongering from all sides of the political spectrum and it's dishonest to deny that it exists. Where there is government, there is control, where there is control...there is fear and manipulation.

But, I agree with you. And would add that conservatism has been demonized by lefties in the same manner.

Political viewpoint is as multi-faceted as personality. And the amygdala is directly related to our personalities and how "fright or flight" is translated through our personality.

You can't label someone "Conservative" or "Liberal" and view the amygdala as a "this size" or "that size" means "this". There are far too many variants and they have to be considered in terms of one's overall personality. Political persuasion is one facet to a multi-facted situation and we know that political persuasion can be multi-faceted in an of itself, do we not? Does that make sense?

Just to give you a little perspective, speaking as a person from a relatively liberal country compared to yours, we're actually pretty relaxed and content with our universal health care, our corporate political donation bans, our private donation limits, our tax-funded abortions, our gay marriage, our relative scarcity of gun violence, and all the other perks of a pluralistic, liberal society.

Portraying liberal public policies as fear-based is pretty inaccurate. Also presenting them as selfish ("the government should take care of me") is EXTREMELY inaccurate. We are compassionate, community minded cheapskates. We all want to take care of each other with the cheapest, most efficient system we can come up with. That happens to mean pooling our resources and looking after the sick or injured, the poor, etc. through our accountable elected representatives and or employees: public servants (teachers, firemen, police, social services, etc.)

You won't get anywhere by misunderstanding your opposition. If you want to be persuasive, try to let go of the temptation to try to associate liberalism with selfishness, laziness or hysteria. It really makes no sense at all. We radical leftists are a compassionate, motivated, relaxed bunch in general.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Just to give you a little perspective, speaking as a person from a relatively liberal country compared to yours, we're actually pretty relaxed and content with our universal health care, our corporate political donation bans, our private donation limits, our tax-funded abortions, our gay marriage, our relative scarcity of gun violence, and all the other perks of a pluralistic, liberal society.

I don't understand what American conservatives have against any of this ^
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I don't understand what American conservatives have against any of this ^

I guess some things are hard to imagine if you've never had them. Doesn't help that your airwaves are filled with talking heads misrepresenting liberalism 24-7.

We get a lot of American TV here. I think Jon Stewart is your only well-known media liberal, and possibly Paul Krugman, although he would not be considered a liberal here.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't understand what American conservatives have against any of this ^
Perhaps they think it reflects poorly on them.
If the study were something other than neurobollocks, then
I (as a liberal) might take pride in having a big & nimble brain.

Btw, I'm sport'n an IQ of almost 70 here. Yeah, be jealous....be very very jealous.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
So your point is that the study referenced in the OP uses fuzzy math and is really pointing to this part of the brain labelled as fear, when in reality it could mean fear and other attributes?[/quote]
That is just basic psychology. There is no one part of the brain that does it all, just as there is so very rarely just one factor involved with how the brain does what it does.
Like one of the previous threads that mentioned Conservatives spend more time focusing on images of doom and dark things. I don't know who exactly that study looked at, but I'm guessing there probably weren't too many Liberal artists who pour their darker side into their art.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand where you're coming from with the different fields mingling together etc, but I think we're focusing on the wrong things here.
The authors of the current biology article were put together to write a story on this relation between the right amygdala and the ACC.

They weren't. Current Biology is an academic journal. This was a published study in a science journal, not a story.

The authors weren't the ones doing the research (well 1 was),
They all were. First, it started with Firth and Feilden, who went to a neuroscientist (Rees) to get the brains of two politicians scanned. Rees then went to Kanai who (apparently) had already in his possession the 90 scans for some other study. They all went back to those participants (the people originally scanned) and asked them about political orientation. They then wrote the whole thing up, sent it into review, and had it published as research.

they referenced many previous studies and arrived at this conclusion.
Let me clear a few things up now:
1) I worked with fMRI scans and studies and with others who did.
2) I have read thousands of neuroimaging studies, papers, reviews, etc. Some because I was interested, some for a study (a "literature review"), others for a graduate seminar or for a presentation by some research group, etc.
3) I have seen how researchers publish studies, including how they use references they don't understand and haven't fully read, mathematical methods they don't understand, and include descriptions that are basically lifted from sources they barely read (and couldn't understand if they did).

Part of this is normal. When I started out, I was told about the "standard" fMRI textbook and I bought and read it. I found out that this wasn't what people did. Mostly, they read the sections which give them some idea about what the names of various statistical analyses are so that they can find out how to run these on their software programs. That part is a problem. What isn't is the fact that they skip the sections on how MRI actually works, as getting into subatomic physics isn't really necessary. More necessary (and also skipped) are the technicalities between the processing/signalling and brain hemodynamics. In other words, I'd bet most grad students and probably even many undergrads know that fMRI doesn't actually measure neural activity, but a proxy for neural activity.

The difference between functional MRI (fMRI), and MRI is that the former allows one to see brain activity by measuring increases in blood flow. More blood, more activity. MRI (what the original scans were that the authors had) can't measure function. It uses the same principles for imaging (the spins of hydrogen protons), but instead is more like an x-ray in that it is static, not dynamic.


If you look at the Reference tab, you'll see that each statement is essentially referenced from people in the neurology field.
Neurology is clinical. This is neuroscience. However, I've looked at the references. And I've read many of them. Because I am one of many who have a serious problem with the state of the social & behavioral sciences in general and the state of neuroscience in particular, especially social psychology and social neuroscience (basically, studies like this). One of the biggest names in the field, Diedrick Stapel, was fired because he made up data over decades, and study after study had to be retracted. After that (not to mention other incidents, like Marc Hauser, a guy who used to work where I did until he was canned for fraud), an already increasing level of concern became much greater. Hence studies like this:
"False-Positive Psychology Undisclosed Flexibility in Data Collection and Analysis Allows Presenting Anything as Significant." Psychological Science, 22(11), 1359-1366.

Or, on fMRI studies in particular, studies like this one which is in a neuroscience journal on brain imagining methods and on the problems with too many protocols to produce and analyze data which the people who are producing and analyzing don't understand. They just follow.


The first referenced article has 4 authors and all were in the neurology field.

They aren't. Arie W. Kruglanski, John T. Jost, & Jack Glaser, are all social psychologists. Frank J. Sulloway has a PhD in the history of science.


Same goes for the second reference and so on.

Yes, the list goes on. For example, when the authors state: " One of the functions of the anterior cingulate cortex is to monitor uncertainty [16,17] and conflicts [18]", they don't tell you that number 17 there is the study "Optimal decision making and the anterior cingulate cortex" from Nature Neuroscience nor do they tell you it concludes that the primary role of the ACC is not to monitor uncertainty, but "integrating reinforcement information over time rather than in monitoring". This study is basically contradicting the view that the ACC "monitor['s] uncertainty", but rather that it is part of a distributed learning system. Basically, the entire study is to show that descriptions of the ACC which concern its role in monitoring are inaccurate, as lesions in this region in monkeys affected the ability of the mokeys to remember rewards over time. Now, firstly, this is a serious problem because cutting into the brains of monkeys to show how the now-deficient monkeys can't be conditioned the way other monkeys can doesn't tell us a single thing about the role of the amount of gray matter in the ACC.

Even better, study 17 cites study 18 in order to say that it is incorrect. The authors cited two studies, one after another, when the first one is devoted to demonstrating that the second is wrong.




The focus shouldn't be on the current biology summary or results, but on the references as to why the results were determined.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you don't read a lot of academic journals and technical literature. And please don't take that as an insult because it isn't nor is it any kind of a criticism; it's true of most people because most people don't go into research, and the kind of literature Current Biology and the references cited in this study are often not available for free, but require university access (which is how I was able to get many of the studies). Additionally, the academic volumes, monographs, etc., which are equally important to a field are expensive (I can buy three of them and still have collectively less pages than in a Harry Potter book, yet have spent a thousand dollars). Also, even if they aren't that expensive they aren't in book stores because nobody is going to go into Barnes & Noble and buy Information Processing by Biochemical Systems: Neural Network-Type Configurations or some equally technical book.

So I can understand where you are coming from. But this was a research study published in a research journal, and the references are standard practice in every single study there is (although it is not supposed to be standard practice to misuse the references). That's how academic literature, whether it is in historical linguistics or cognitive engineering, works.

It's so researchers don't have to re-invent the wheel. They cite sources so that others who don't think they are correct can go to those sources and see where that view comes from and what the evidence for it is.

Unfortunately, too often that isn't done.

Here, for example, it wasn't noticed that the authors cited a 1998 textbook to support using a specfic algorithm, even though the don't indicate anywhere what algorithm or where in the textbook which contains several chapters on such algorithms one can find what they used.

They don't mention why even though they didn't use functional MRI scans, they seperated the white/gray matter in their imaging data using "the Oxford University Centre for Functional MRI of the Brain Software Library".

Nor do they mention why, when they state "The ROI for ACC was defined as a sphere with a radius of 20 mm centered at (x =
u2212.gif
3, y = 33, z = 22) [4,27]" (ROI= "region of interest") they cite the sources they do. They are describing where they looked and the size of that region. This is very necessary for fMRI scans and sometimes for MRI scans because neural activity that one measures is often in very, very small regions. But the smaller the size of the region, the more chance you will miss something. So fMRI studies usually cite why they selected the size (actually, volume, measured in voxels) they chose.

The problem is that
1) The researchers didn't do an fMRI study. They had MRI images, not fMRI data..
2) The first study they cite in support didn't use either fMRI or MRI but ERP.
3) The second used fMRI.
4) Neither study gives any reason to use that radius at that center.
 
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