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Conflict in the Middle East

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by canadianhorsefan, May 15, 2004.

  1. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Student,

    Why do you think that I should read more history? It seems to me that we agree on the basics - for example, I mentioned Britain's part in the ME. I'd be happy to add that Britain's leaving the Subcontinent was effected very clumsily indeed and that it is the cause of much of today's problem.

    It is always difficult to separate theory from practice. Islam is in theory tolerant, especially against "peoples of the book" (meaning Christians and Jews). And the Qur'an says: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256; interpretation ("translation") by A. Yusuf Ali).
     
  2. chookyman

    chookyman Member

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  3. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    sounds kinda' like most fundimentalist religions (christianity and thier ilk).

    anyway, back on track. The basic problem is that neither sides REALY wants to make any consessions to the other. They both hope that if they just keep duking it out that eventually they will win. (either by having the other side give up or by having the international community step in) Neither side trusts the other (and both have good reason not to) and thus they refuse to give either side a fair chance to make good on any peace proposal.

    basically as I see it, this fight will continue untill something drastic happins to both sides that would knock both on their proverbial asses. And it would have to be from an outside source or they would just blame one another like they always do.
    Something to show them how petty and terrible this fight has become. What that would or could be I have no idea.

    wa:do
     
  4. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    PW,
    You wrote
    "The basic problem is that neither sides REALY wants to make any consessions to the other."
    Would any country make concessions if their land was stolen from them? Why should Lebanon, Jordania and the Palestinians accept that a foreign power takes parts of their countries? Imagine Russia going back on their deal and taking back Alaska. Would there be any concessions from the US? I doubt it. Any country has the right to fight invaders and occupying powers, according to international law, but the methods can be discussed.
     
  5. Mr Spinkles

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    anders-- Just remember to take into consideration the Israeli's viewpoint also. Should they negotiate with terrorists? If they give concessions as a result of terrorism, won't that only encourage terrorism in the future? Perhaps that is why Israel only wants to deal with Palestine when people won't think Israel is being brough to the table through terrorism. Maybe that is why every time there is a terrorist attack, the entire peace process goes to crap (notice that every time a peaceful solution gains any headway, a terrorist organization commits another attack? These groups do not want peace, because if the conflict was ever resolved they would lose power).

    Also, would any country make concessions if, in recent history, they were attacked suddenly from all sides on three seperate occasions? Why should Israel give back occupied land when the Arabs have repeatedly attacked them from that currently occupied land? Why on Earth should Israel even consider giving back that land until the Arab nations fully recognize Israel's permanent right to exist?

    All I am saying is look at both sides. I agree with painted wolf....both sides must be willing to make concessions for peace to work.
     
  6. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    You know I absolutely agree that there is never 1 side to an issue, and that both sides need to be investigated as well. Now, as far as terrorists are concerned, you think the Palestinians are terrorist while they think of themselves as freedom fighters and the Israelis as an oppressive occupation entity. Both sides do have to make some sort of sacrafices of course. And israel needs to stop the ILLEGAL settlements by zionists moving into Israel taking land illegaly. Why does Israel disregard this? It is a violation of international law that Israel and America always seem to use as an excuse against others (Iraq). Anyways, nice discussion. take care
     
  7. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    oh and student of god....the new thread you made was refuted by me. take a look. thank u.
     
  8. UNITED

    UNITED Member

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    I'm just 16, but I have always been neutral to the conflict. Let me just say i was an ignorant American kid, having no idea what the Middle East was, or caring anything about it until I got to a magnet high school in 2002. There we watched the news and heared about the bombings in Israel. But I believed the Jews needed their own land after what the Nazis did. The free world allowed it, and must make so it will never happen again. But then I realized, they got the Palestinian land,and treated them badly. It's hard to take a side. But with the suicide bombings on Isreal civilians and the Israeli attacks on Palestinian cities make you want them to end it. I think that the Israelis should give a big portion of land to the Palestinians as quick as possible.
     
  9. chookyman

    chookyman Member

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    The issues with Israle is a lot more complecated then that. There is a belief that as long as the Jews and Palistinians keep at each other, they will advert which all the Jews, Muslims, and Christians fear, and that is Armongeton or Judgement Day.

    You see the story goes something like this, that when the two stop fighting and actully bring about peace which is long-lasting, the bringer of death to this world will arise (known as the antichrist or the demon of the bottomless pit).

    You must realise and read the koran and you will see that there are a lot of references made to both jews and christians, which to a large majority of muslims hate jews. So whether Jews do nothing or something, they will be dammed if they do and dammed if they don't by the muslims. After the jews, then it will be the christians turn. Like they say in Islam, kill the saturday people first and then the sunday people next.

    Islam is a religion that cannot sit still, it is their obligation to spreed the word of Islam and make the whole world on big islamic empire. Look what is happing now in the European countries and southeast asian countries. It is all there in black in white on the net written by authorities.
     
  10. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    United, You write "I think that the Israelis should give a big portion of land to the Palestinians as quick as possible." A majority in the UN agrees that Israel illegally occupies parts of the former Palestine. Those parts should of course be restored immediately, like the land that is being stolen when the wall is built.

    In a way, the reasons for the Palestinian's actions are not complicted or hard to understand at all. If my country were occupied by people coming from other parts of the world, I would in all probability fight fiercely in every way I could find out.

    chookyman, you make several statements without proof.

    "There is a belief that as long as the Jews and Palistinians keep at each other, they will advert which all the Jews, Muslims, and Christians fear, and that is Armongeton or Judgement Day." Harmageddon is a Christian only concept. Where do Christians enter the conflict -- unless you are referring to that the cause of the conflict is that Christian nations with Britain and USA in the forefront gave away land they didn't own to people who weren't living there.

    Looking back in history, Islam has been living in peace with other religions in several places. I know of no respectable source, claiming "kill the saturday people first and then the sunday people next." Which religion is most intent on spreading? What about Math 28:19 "teach all nations, baptizing them". It would be interesting if you could quote similar verses from the Qur'an, but remember that the most violent Holy Book is the Bible. Think of the genocides in the OT, and that God himself eradicated the whole world's population, with the exception of one family only.

    Where did you find "You see the story goes something like this, that when the two stop fighting and actully bring about peace which is long-lasting, the bringer of death to this world will arise (known as the antichrist or the demon of the bottomless pit)."? "Antichrist" is purely Christian, so how could your quote relate to the Middle East conflict, even if some <self-censored> person has said so?
     
  11. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    Hello all. The conflict in Palestine is a difficult one to sort out. There is more than meets the eye. My stance is that Israel has no right to exist as it does because they are occupying a land which belongs to the people who were there before the creation of Israel. Massive migration by european jews sent it in a down spiral. And even Ariel Sharon today encourages jews to migrate to Israel, a land that isnt theirs.

    Imagine a 10 people coming into your home and telling you now it's their home, but you can have this room here and that one there, but that's it. Your house now belongs to them, what will you do? Say ok? I wouldn't.

    And about "Armagedon", this is a term used in the bible, not by the muslims. And who you call the anti christ, we call the false messiah who will come and will be followed by the jews. Anyways, chookyman you spurt a lot of crap and can't back it up. Muslims hate jews? Well come now, wasn't it the christians who persecuted the jews so much to the point where they needed a homeland for themselves, now the palestinians have to suffer for the treatment of the jews by the christians.

    Maybe there are a lot of muslims and no muslims who hate zionists, completely different. Zionist aren't only some jews, but they are also christians who support the apartheid state of Israel. I don't like zionists who bulldoze homes in refugee camps. This is the same treatment of the native americans. They were called savages for fighting back for what was theirs, how ironic.
     
  12. Mr Spinkles

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    Killing innocent women, children, and the elderly is not fighting back--it is terrorism. It acheives no end other than to increase the misery of both sides. Like I said earlier, perhaps terrorism in this instance is understandable, but it is never acceptable.
     
  13. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    But Mr_Spinkles, MANY of the people we have killed in the Iraqi conflict HAVE been innocent women and children. So what is the difference?
     
  14. Mr Spinkles

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    The difference is twofold: 1) the Iraq war was intended to (and arguably did) accomplish something other than simple revenge--freedom for millions; the elimination of the (perceived) threat posed by Saddam; an end to mass torture and mass execution; and hope for the future as Iraq can only prosper more under self rule than under Saddam.

    The terrorist bombings in Palestine, on the other hand, accomplish NOTHING other than death and misery for the helpless--they derail peace talks, and ensure the continuation of the cycle of violence.

    2) The deaths of innocent women and children was unintentional in the Iraq war. With the terrorists, it is intentional murder in cold blood, as far as I am concerned.

    I am not saying that killing civilians is right...but there are differences between the unintentional killing of civilians in war, and terrorism.

    What I find disconcerting is the excuses I see on both sides....people who support the Israelis will not admit that Israeli oppression is wrong, and people who support the Palestinians will not admit that terrorism is wrong. These aren't sports teams to be rooted for, people...this is real life, and wrong is wrong, even if it's your own side doing it.
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Of what "Israeli oppression" are you speaking?
     
  16. Mr Spinkles

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    Bulldozing houses, enforcing curfews, building illegal settlements encroaching on Palestinian territory...if tanks were rolling down my street prohibiting me from going to work, I would feel a little oppressed.
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I would as well. Tell me, Mr_Sprinkles, when did it become Palestinian territory?
     
  18. UNITED

    UNITED Member

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    The violence has to stop. The UN has to step in immediately and corner the Isrealis and order them to stop their actions. My thoughts are that the Palestianian sucicide bombers have given up hope and just live on hatred and vengeance and continue to kill without remorse, and without thinking of their people's future if such events occur. And the Israelis are pissed off. They ae right in the fact that innocent Israelis are being murdered in cold blood, but it dosen't give them the right to start bombing cities filled with little kids. Someone needs to put them in check. I don't know if it is the media, but it's either the Israelis are the evil tyrants and Palestianians are the innocent opressed, and that's why the suicide bombers do what they do or it's the Palestinians are the evil, religious crazies that kill innocent Israelis. It's just politics. Everyone takes a side. We need to end that. All of the killing needs to end
     
  19. Mr Spinkles

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    Deut-- That sort of depends on what you mean by "Palestinian territory"....do you mean territory inhabited by a largely Palestinian population, or do you mean territory autonomous of Israeli rule? Technically the West Bank and Gaza have been Israeli territory since the U.N. gave it to them after WWII....on the other hand, Israel signed an agreement to create the interim government called the Palestinian Authority in 1993 (although Israel did reserve the right to maintain public order, as well as internal and external security in the West Bank and Gaza).

    In a legal sense, Israel owns the West Bank and Gaza (although many countries now recognize Palestine as its own country). Then again, the Native Americans never legally "owned" their land, either.

    How would you answer your own question?
     
  20. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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