Conditioned Avoidance and Delusions

[dybmh]

I've been recently thinking about avoidance and how it relates to persistent strongly held delusions or irrational beliefs. I have my own irrational beliefs. And I've been trying to examine and understand how and why I maintain them.

Also, I'm a procrastinator That's just another way of saying that I am very talented at avoiding things and I have a lot practice doing it. So, avoidance could be something that is supporting or propping up my own irrational notions. If so, my next step is to figure out what I'm avoiding and how is this avoidance rewarding.

Started searching today, and found this.

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Conditioned Avoidance Response:

"an acquired (learned) response that prevents, postpones, or reduces the frequency or intensity of an aversive stimulus. A conditioned response that stops an aversive stimulus is known as a conditioned escape response. For example, if a monkey learns to press a lever that turns off a loud noise, the lever press is a conditioned escape response. See avoidance conditioning."

( source )

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Persecutory delusions and the conditioned avoidance paradigm:

"avoidance behaviours may help perpetuate and fix persecutory ideas by preventing their disconfirmation. In addition, patients may explain negative events in a paranoid way instead of making negative self-attributions"

( source )

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I had some tough struggles even after I joined this forum. Not with the forum, with my own anxiety in both real life and outside of it.

It took years to get to the root of it - that some subjects made me very nervous and feeling insecure due to my own deep-rooted gender dysphoria.

 

[dybmh]

I had some tough struggles even after I joined this forum. Not with the forum, with my own anxiety in both real life and outside of it.

It took years to get to the root of it - that some subjects made me very nervous and feeling insecure due to my own deep-rooted gender dysphoria.

Thanks for this bit of support.

Here's what I'm thinking... If it's learned ( aka conditioned ), that means it needs to be unlearned. And that takes time, patience and practice. But guess what, I'm horrible at all those things. It's as if I have a predisposition towards avoidance.

If so, then I don't know... maybe I'll use that to apply a little compassion on myself... as I'm trying to figure out my own issues.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I've been recently thinking about avoidance and how it relates to persistent strongly held delusions or irrational beliefs. I have my own irrational beliefs. And I've been trying to examine and understand how and why I maintain them.

Also, I'm a procrastinator So, avoidance could be something that is supporting or propping up my own irrational notions. If so, my next step is to figure out what I'm avoiding and how is this avoidance rewarding.

Started searching today, and found this.

---------------------------------------------

Conditioned Avoidance Response:

"an acquired (learned) response that prevents, postpones, or reduces the frequency or intensity of an aversive stimulus. A conditioned response that stops an aversive stimulus is known as a conditioned escape response. For example, if a monkey learns to press a lever that turns off a loud noise, the lever press is a conditioned escape response. See avoidance conditioning."

( source )

---------------------------------------------

Persecutory delusions and the conditioned avoidance paradigm:

"avoidance behaviours may help perpetuate and fix persecutory ideas by preventing their disconfirmation. In addition, patients may explain negative events in a paranoid way instead of making negative self-attributions"

( source )

I believe there are things we should avoid like dangerous animals, driving a car without a seatbelt and developing close friendships with psychopaths. Then there are ordinary things in life where we should not avoid but simply get on with it. Cleaning the toilets, discussing tax returns with the appropriate people and tending to sick relatives. So I suppose the question in the fist instance is what is being avoided and why. If its an activity we really need to engage with there are strategies such as graduated exposure to help us move beyond avoidance.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've been recently thinking about avoidance and how it relates to persistent strongly held delusions or irrational beliefs. I have my own irrational beliefs. And I've been trying to examine and understand how and why I maintain them.

Also, I'm a procrastinator That's just another way of saying that I am very talented at avoiding things and I have a lot practice doing it. So, avoidance could be something that is supporting or propping up my own irrational notions. If so, my next step is to figure out what I'm avoiding and how is this avoidance rewarding.

Started searching today, and found this.

---------------------------------------------

Conditioned Avoidance Response:

"an acquired (learned) response that prevents, postpones, or reduces the frequency or intensity of an aversive stimulus. A conditioned response that stops an aversive stimulus is known as a conditioned escape response. For example, if a monkey learns to press a lever that turns off a loud noise, the lever press is a conditioned escape response. See avoidance conditioning."

( source )

---------------------------------------------

Persecutory delusions and the conditioned avoidance paradigm:

"avoidance behaviours may help perpetuate and fix persecutory ideas by preventing their disconfirmation. In addition, patients may explain negative events in a paranoid way instead of making negative self-attributions"

( source )

Common challenge I think. But I think it depends, as Adrian alluded to, just what is is you're avoiding. That said, some folks are excuse machines for the simplest of tasks.

 

[Nakosis]

I've been recently thinking about avoidance and how it relates to persistent strongly held delusions or irrational beliefs. I have my own irrational beliefs. And I've been trying to examine and understand how and why I maintain them.

Also, I'm a procrastinator That's just another way of saying that I am very talented at avoiding things and I have a lot practice doing it. So, avoidance could be something that is supporting or propping up my own irrational notions. If so, my next step is to figure out what I'm avoiding and how is this avoidance rewarding.

Started searching today, and found this.

---------------------------------------------

Conditioned Avoidance Response:

"an acquired (learned) response that prevents, postpones, or reduces the frequency or intensity of an aversive stimulus. A conditioned response that stops an aversive stimulus is known as a conditioned escape response. For example, if a monkey learns to press a lever that turns off a loud noise, the lever press is a conditioned escape response. See avoidance conditioning."

( source )

---------------------------------------------

Persecutory delusions and the conditioned avoidance paradigm:

"avoidance behaviours may help perpetuate and fix persecutory ideas by preventing their disconfirmation. In addition, patients may explain negative events in a paranoid way instead of making negative self-attributions"

( source )

Nothing I say is likely going to help anyone, but...

I live for conditioned avoidance responses. See something I dislike coming my way, don't even have to think about it, zoom... I'm out of there. In fact the more I can condition myself to avoid what I dislike, I see that as an advantage.

Persecution, I see persecution as a challenge. It not among the things I dislike. Dealing with persecution is a life skill. The better one gets at it the more success one can have in life.

I suppose I don't see these things as negative. So not causing me problems.

 

[dybmh]

Nothing I say is likely going to help anyone, but...

I live for conditioned avoidance responses. See something I dislike coming my way, don't even have to think about it, zoom... I'm out of there. In fact the more I can condition myself to avoid what I dislike, I see that as an advantage.

Persecution, I see persecution as a challenge. It not among the things I dislike. Dealing with persecution is a life skill. The better one gets at it the more success one can have in life.

I suppose I don't see these things as negative. So not causing me problems.

Thanks for this.

 

[dybmh]

Common challenge I think. But I think it depends, as Adrian alluded to, just what is is you're avoiding. That said, some folks are excuse machines for the simplest of tasks.

Well, one thing I'm avoiding is western Yoga on youtube. But I am reading about the yamas and niyamas. It's part of what led me to this introspection.

 

[The Hammer]

I've been recently thinking about avoidance and how it relates to persistent strongly held delusions or irrational beliefs. I have my own irrational beliefs. And I've been trying to examine and understand how and why I maintain them.

Also, I'm a procrastinator That's just another way of saying that I am very talented at avoiding things and I have a lot practice doing it. So, avoidance could be something that is supporting or propping up my own irrational notions. If so, my next step is to figure out what I'm avoiding and how is this avoidance rewarding.

Started searching today, and found this.

---------------------------------------------

Conditioned Avoidance Response:

"an acquired (learned) response that prevents, postpones, or reduces the frequency or intensity of an aversive stimulus. A conditioned response that stops an aversive stimulus is known as a conditioned escape response. For example, if a monkey learns to press a lever that turns off a loud noise, the lever press is a conditioned escape response. See avoidance conditioning."

( source )

---------------------------------------------

Persecutory delusions and the conditioned avoidance paradigm:

"avoidance behaviours may help perpetuate and fix persecutory ideas by preventing their disconfirmation. In addition, patients may explain negative events in a paranoid way instead of making negative self-attributions"

( source )

As a highly anxious individual (which is essentially a preoccupation with irrational thoughts), so I completely understand the conditioned avoidance response. I do it myself quite frequently, and only through massive amounts of introspection (and a smidge of therapy), am I unlearning those patterns of behavior.

That's really what it comes down to, breaking old thinking patterns, and building new ones.

 

[Howard Is]

Well, one thing I'm avoiding is western Yoga on youtube. But I am reading about the yamas and niyamas. It's part of what led me to this introspection.

You’ve been reading Patanjali ? Excellent. To me he is the most lucid and helpful of The Major Dudes.

As soon as I read your OP, my thought was that you would get immense benefit from Iyengar yoga.

It is in no way in conflict with Judaism btw.

 

[dybmh]

You’ve been reading Patanjali ?

No, I'm not there yet...

Iyengar yoga.

I watched an interview of him on youtube yesterday. I remember he mentioned Patanjali a least once in the interview.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I've been recently thinking about avoidance and how it relates to persistent strongly held delusions or irrational beliefs. I have my own irrational beliefs. And I've been trying to examine and understand how and why I maintain them.

Also, I'm a procrastinator That's just another way of saying that I am very talented at avoiding things and I have a lot practice doing it. So, avoidance could be something that is supporting or propping up my own irrational notions. If so, my next step is to figure out what I'm avoiding and how is this avoidance rewarding.

Started searching today, and found this.

---------------------------------------------

Conditioned Avoidance Response:

"an acquired (learned) response that prevents, postpones, or reduces the frequency or intensity of an aversive stimulus. A conditioned response that stops an aversive stimulus is known as a conditioned escape response. For example, if a monkey learns to press a lever that turns off a loud noise, the lever press is a conditioned escape response. See avoidance conditioning."

( source )

---------------------------------------------

Persecutory delusions and the conditioned avoidance paradigm:

"avoidance behaviours may help perpetuate and fix persecutory ideas by preventing their disconfirmation. In addition, patients may explain negative events in a paranoid way instead of making negative self-attributions"

( source )

Could you give any examples of your apparently irrational beliefs? Not sure that any of my experiences with avoidance will be that relevant.

 

[Howard Is]

No, I'm not there yet...

I watched an interview of him on youtube yesterday. I remember he mentioned Patanjali a least once in the interview.

Patanjali wrote the Yoga Sutras around 300BC. A beautifully non-theistic treatise on yoga, in the fullest sense of the word.
Mr Iyengar developed asana practice (physical postures) as a way of putting Patanjali’s teaching into practice.

I practiced at the Iyengar school for ten years, and I think you would find the practice relevant to the subject of this thread. I’ll put some thoughts together and post them. After I’ve finished cooking my roast dinner

 

[dybmh]

Could you give any examples of your apparently irrational beliefs? Not sure that any of my experiences with avoidance will be that relevant.

Sure.

So, there's two... and these are simple:

There's this idea I have stuck in my head, it's that the concept of Time is a substance of some sort. I know this makes no scientific sense... and it was pointed out to me by several folks in a separate thread. But for some reason, it still remains. I know it's not like a substance or a force. So it's a science thing... But in my head, I've got it stuck as one thing...

Here's another one. It's actually similar... Karma... Somewhere along the line I picked up the substance based approach to Karma from the Jains. And then I find myself kind of... ummm ... I don't know how to describe it. It's like I really like this concept of substance based Karma. I don't know why it's satisfying to me. The problem is, I find myself accidentally inserting or superimposing this idea of substance based Karma onto other religions even though they don't believe in substance based Karma.

These may seem like a trivial things. And it is. It's just weird. And then I started thinking about all the other strange ideas that bounce around in my head. And I've started, I don't know, wondering how many of those other ideas are insignificant. Are they rational? Do I have any real reason for believing them. Or am I just being open minded to a fault. In other words, am I gullible...

Anyways, that's a few examples.. But on reflection, there are a lot of these little irrational "what ifs" floating in my head. And new ones pop-up all the time. And I'm starting to wonder, "what if" I need to let go of this whole "what if" POV. Or maybe put it in it's place. Because it is distracting to be like Walter MItty* essentially day dreaming all the time.

* "an ordinary often ineffectual person who indulges in fantastic daydreams of personal triumphs". - wikipedia

 

[dybmh]

Patanjali wrote the Yoga Sutras around 300BC. A beautifully non-theistic treatise on yoga, in the fullest sense of the word.
Mr Iyengar developed asana practice (physical postures) as a way of putting Patanjali’s teaching into practice.

I practiced at the Iyengar school for ten years, and I think you would find the practice relevant to the subject of this thread. I’ll put some thoughts together and post them. After I’ve finished cooking my roast dinner

That sounds really good. I get really anxious every time I even think about doing Yoga. Learning about it, no problem. Practicing it, I don't know. I have weird irrational reaction. But it's not aversion because I'm Jewish. It's fear of failure. And that's another irrational thought. No one is watching, no one will know if I'm clumsy and tight... But it's weird. I'm not a fearful person.

So perfectionism... is irrational. And in a way, it encourages avoidance. And that relieves the discomfort, and each time I avoid it, I get a little reward. Guess what, I've been scared of failing at Yoga for over 15 years ever since my wife brought home P90x and was doing vinyasa's with Tony Horton.

@Mock Turtle: add that to the list. irrational belief that my everyday foibles and failures are significant.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Sure.

So, there's two... and these are simple:

There's this idea I have stuck in my head, it's that the concept of Time is a substance of some sort. I know this makes no scientific sense... and it was pointed out to me by several folks in a separate thread. But for some reason, it still remains. I know it's not like a substance or a force. So it's a science thing... But in my head, I've got it stuck as one thing...

Since I mostly know my limitations, I have to place such things in the unknown and mostly irrelevant - my scientific knowledge being rather limited even though as an ex-engineer I tend to place my beliefs here, in science.

Here's another one. It's actually similar... Karma... Somewhere along the line I picked up the substance based approach to Karma from the Jains. And then I find myself kind of... ummm ... I don't know how to describe it. It's like I really like this concept of substance based Karma. I don't know why it's satisfying to me. The problem is, I find myself accidentally inserting or superimposing this idea of substance based Karma onto other religions even though they don't believe in substance based Karma.

My experience of Karma seems to suggest one can choose what one wants from such experiences - as in, any interpretation might do.

These may seem like a trivial things. And it is. It's just weird. And then I started thinking about all the other strange ideas that bounce around in my head. And I've started, I don't know, wondering how many of those other ideas are insignificant. Are they rational? Do I have any real reason for believing them. Or am I just being open minded to a fault. In other words, am I gullible...

Anyways, that's a few examples.. But on reflection, there are a lot of these little irrational "what ifs" floating in my head. And new ones pop-up all the time. And I'm starting to wonder, "what if" I need to let go of this whole "what if" POV. Or maybe put it in it's place. Because it is distracting to be like Walter MItty* essentially day dreaming all the time.

* "an ordinary often ineffectual person who indulges in fantastic daydreams of personal triumphs". - wikipedia

Keep an open mind but don't let the gremlins in. Always difficult when the sum of knowledge increases and one's ability doesn't.

The fear of failure I think is perfectly normal, even as perfectionism might be too.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, one thing I'm avoiding is western Yoga on youtube. But I am reading about the yamas and niyamas. It's part of what led me to this introspection.

Quite the challenges, aren't they?

 

[dybmh]

Quite the challenges, aren't they?

maybe I'll use that to apply a little compassion on myself... as I'm trying to figure out my own issues.

See the connection to the yamas... I'm on ahmisa. I've got to stop being so self critical. It is self defeating in areas beyond doing workout videos with my wife...