Concerning? Ring of Power

[Shadow Wolf]

"That still only counts as one!"
LMAO!!!

 

[SomeRandom]

Speaking of Legolas and Gimli I also thought their friendship was much better than Frodo and Sam's. They're two basically naturally bitter enemies but they forged a very deep friendship clad in iron on the battlefield, which I argue is one of the few ways two of those species can become friends.

Omg when Faramir threatens Gimli and Logolas immediately comes to his defence. That was so epic!!!
Legolas saw Gimli as a brother, though would probably not admit it out loud
Maybe in the books lol

 

[Nimos]

This one has been bothering me. Probably more than it should, but I'm a nerd and this stuff is of significant importance to do it right. And I refute with the fact astrology and constellations aren't a part of the lores or practices of Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, Elvs or anyone else it seems. He created this highly sophisticated and elaborate cultures, down to religions, creation myths, the migrations of peoples, even a language. Out of all the means of divination, every way they scribe, and everything Tolkien laid out and they want to use as an analogy to describe their creative liberties against something that is extremely vague and open to interpretation?
And, ultimately, we could have had a Beatles Lord of the Rings but Tolkien said no because he no confidence in their ability to stay true to it.

Agree, he created 12 languages but only fully developed two of them for the elves

I think why it annoys me so much, is because of the potential lack of respect against the creator. Just for second, imagine spending almost your whole life caring and working on something that you hold dear, which I think we can assume he did or he wouldn't have done it. The absolute joy he must have felt when others started to appreciate this world and the creation as well and getting others interested in it.

Now some people comes along, which think what you have created is very cool, but instantly believe that they can "claim" it as theirs and improve it or that they somehow have the right to do what they want with it, just because they paid a lot of money. And we know for a fact, that these creations can be almost utterly destroyed by a single bad movie adaptation, either because those creating them, didn't care for it enough to make sure that it is good enough quality or because they think they can "improve" it and turn it into something else.

Imagine you wrote a book, no matter the topic, it could be a science book about the Universe and it became very popular, then someone comes along and start changing it because they "feel" that this was probably what you meant or thought that they would just improve it for you, without having any authority or understanding of what you think or feel.

If you remember Stan Lee he had a case going on with Marvel:
Lee said he regretted signing a contract with Marvel in 1998 that supposedly would pay him a share of the profits from movies and TV shows based on characters he created. In 2002, he wound up suing Marvel, claiming he hadn't been given his proper share, and a few years later was awarded 10% of the profits from films like "Spider-Man." He also reportedly received $1 million in annual compensation as Marvel's chairman emeritus.

Now if you recall there also was a case going on with one of the female actors (might have been Natalie Portman) playing in one of these, but I can't remember who it it was for certain. But it was something with the actor and Stan lee as mentioned, getting paid based on the profit that the movie made, but these companies made or spun it so these profits weren't "really" from the movies, but from other things like Netflix etc. which the contract didn't include, which meant that they didn't have to pay them nearly as much as they should otherwise. Can't remember the exact details, but:

According to The Numbers, the nine-film Spider-Man franchise (including the three MCU films) has spun up over $3.2 billion domestically and $8 billion worldwide, making it the fourth biggest of all time, behind only the entire 38-film MCU

Now Stan lee's net worth when he died is estimated to be around 50 million dollars, if he were paid 10% of the profit from the marvel movies, one would assume that his net worth would be a lot higher, the 8 billion are only for the Spider man movies.

"I was stupid in a business way," Lee told the Hollywood Reporter in 2016. "I should have been greedier."

This is what I mean, these business people behind the scene, don't care about anything other than making a profit, and they will step and destroy anything standing in their way, even if that mean to ruin what someone have spend their whole life turning into a success and something that millions of people care for. Again, look at Star wars and Star trek... completely ruined.

 

[Nimos]

You say you would be insulted by the Amazon representation of females in this upcoming show if you were a woman?
I actually am a woman and I strongly identify with Brienne and Eowyn’s struggle specifically. So I might respond very positively to this representation. I honestly don’t know.
Either way it makes me proud to see such non traditional female roles in mainstream stories such as this
And indeed the lack of empathy I see from my fellow male fans for their struggles makes me sad (not speaking of you specifically. I’m speaking in general.)
I happen to like many things that are traditionally considered masculine exploits in popular culture. Including Lord of the Rings, as it were.
So no, I champion any portrayal that makes the feminine into masculine. If that’s what it takes for you guys to take us seriously as people. I will take what I can get.
Sorry. I but abhor such boundaries.

This is obviously something that can easily be misunderstood in regards to what I mean by that point.

Lets say you wanted to show that males are caring and sensitive people. But rather than making or spending the time making a solid argument for why men can be so. You simply depict them as women. That to me is not to care about making a valid argument, that is simply to throw someone else's established characteristics upon them, without even bothering to ask the question what does it mean to be caring and sensitive? Maybe our understanding of these words are incorrect or could be better?

So when women fight for being treated equal to men, I don't think the solution is simply to throw established men characteristics on them, as if that is how women are equal to men. I don't think women around the world, should go around and think that if they have to appear strong, that they need to act as if they are men, because that is how our society tells us what a "strong" women is. I think its a poor message to send, exactly like women being filled with skinny models and if they don't look like that, then they are not good enough, so many women suffers from all these screwed up messages that is thrown in their faces constantly of what they should and shouldn't do if they want to be "good" enough.

What Hollywood and these people are doing, have nothing to do with reality, they are forcing these awful messages upon people, because they think they are in the right without having any clue what they are doing. Exactly the same, when they release a **** show, like the Kenobi show and before the show is even released, they push the black lead in front of the train and start warning anyone that criticize it, that they are being racists. When by far the majority is angry at the show, not her in particular and again far the majority is angry at her character, not her. Because the whole show is absolute trash.

We know there are racists out there, we can't stop it. Even if Kenobi had been a massive success, she would still have gotten racists comments, because some people are freaking idiots.

This is what the black guy, playing Finn in the Disney Star wars had to say to Disney:
“It’s so difficult to manoeuvre, you get yourself involved in projects and you’re not necessarily going to like everything. [But] what I would say to Disney is do not bring out a black character, market them to be much more important in the franchise than they are and then have them pushed to the side. It’s not good. I’ll say it straight up.”

Disney didn't give a **** about racism or trying to speak their case, they just needed to check a box. And I fully agree with him, if they really want to take this fight, then stop putting these people in absolutely trash roles and trash productions.

Well I honestly don’t know much about this upcoming show. You seemed to be complaining about the photoshoot involving a female wearing male armour specifically. I sincerely apologise if I misrepresented you. That was not at all my intention
That’s what the Jackson’s films did back in the day as well. Surely that’s only a promotional piece for the series and perhaps not an accurate reflection of the storyline. It’s just an ad, right?

I hope my explanation above made my point clear. The armor is of no interest. Its the value system behind what they believe makes a women strong.

Like the Finn character say, you don't do these things by simply casting a black person for a role to then just throw them out as trash afterwards, after they have "played" the race card. That is not something you do because you care about an issue, but because they think it will benefit their image, these companies have departments basically doing nothing else than making sure and trying to improve their image, because it is important for companies.

Remain in blissful ignorance my friend. It’s better for your state of mind. Trust me on this

Ok I see

 

[Nimos]

My chief complaints are one is the Iron Throne does not look the like the Iron Throne, let alone looking capable of giving the Mad King another nickname of the Scabbed King.
Two is the Targaryn eyes aren't purple. Though I understand this to be due to them not being able to make it look good on screen. Which does make me curious, because the blue eye effect for the vampires in Underworld till looks awesome 20 years later.

I don't know, my knowledge of Game of thrones is purely from the tv series, some of the hardcore fans might complain about it, I don't know. Im at the mercy of the tv series writers on this one.
I do like the darker style more compared to the Rings of Power, some of the stuff from it that I have seen, seem cheap compared to the Game of throne one. But time will tell. The dragons looks freaking awesome

 

[Nimos]

So I might respond very positively to this representation. I honestly don’t know.
Either way it makes me proud to see such non traditional female roles in mainstream stories such as this

Found this video from a Tolkien fan, that I think you will enjoy and expand a bit on what Im talking about, even though its not on the exact same topic.

 

[SomeRandom]

This is obviously something that can easily be misunderstood in regards to what I mean by that point.

Lets say you wanted to show that males are caring and sensitive people. But rather than making or spending the time making a solid argument for why men can be so. You simply depict them as women. That to me is not to care about making a valid argument, that is simply to throw someone else's established characteristics upon them, without even bothering to ask the question what does it mean to be caring and sensitive? Maybe our understanding of these words are incorrect or could be better?

Well, what exactly do you mean by depicting men as women? In terms of portraying sensitivity in men I mean?
Indeed I have always found all the men in Jackson’s trilogy adaption to be highly sensitive and caring individuals. Which I think is in keeping with the spirit of the original books. Tolkien based much of his portrayals of friendship and comrades on his own experiences in the trenches during WWI after all.
Are those good examples of portraying such sensitivity in male characters, in your opinion?
And indeed what do you think would qualify as the opposite?
Because honestly I think I would largely agree with you, I’m just a little unsure

So when women fight for being treated equal to men, I don't think the solution is simply to throw established men characteristics on them, as if that is how women are equal to men. I don't think women around the world, should go around and think that if they have to appear strong, that they need to act as if they are men, because that is how our society tells us what a "strong" women is. I think its a poor message to send, exactly like women being filled with skinny models and if they don't look like that, then they are not good enough, so many women suffers from all these screwed up messages that is thrown in their faces constantly of what they should and shouldn't do if they want to be "good" enough.

Whilst I do agree with your sentiment, indeed a lot of the time portrayals of strong independent women in modern media tends to go horribly. Just making them act stoic or flawless without celebrating them as actual people. Ignoring traditional displays of femininity
Is that what you qualify as “men’s characteristics” being thrown on women? Because if so I would largely agree.
Though in saying that, I don’t really see that much distinction between traits that are “male” vs traits that are “female.” That could be because I grew up in essentially two cultures which blurred the lines for me. What are considered feminine displays in one of my cultures isn’t in my other and vice versa.
So I might slightly disagree with you on the specifics but I’m not entirely sure.

What Hollywood and these people are doing, have nothing to do with reality, they are forcing these awful messages upon people, because they think they are in the right without having any clue what they are doing. Exactly the same, when they release a **** show, like the Kenobi show and before the show is even released, they push the black lead in front of the train and start warning anyone that criticize it, that they are being racists. When by far the majority is angry at the show, not her in particular and again far the majority is angry at her character, not her. Because the whole show is absolute trash.

We know there are racists out there, we can't stop it. Even if Kenobi had been a massive success, she would still have gotten racists comments, because some people are freaking idiots.

This is what the black guy, playing Finn in the Disney Star wars had to say to Disney:
“It’s so difficult to manoeuvre, you get yourself involved in projects and you’re not necessarily going to like everything. [But] what I would say to Disney is do not bring out a black character, market them to be much more important in the franchise than they are and then have them pushed to the side. It’s not good. I’ll say it straight up.”

I’m not sure I entirely agree. Sure we will always have racists but that doesn’t mean we should merely consign ourselves to essentially let them off the hook whenever they harass a star for racial reasons.
Though I do agree that Disney can pat itself on the back prematurely and indeed foster a lot of outbursts due to their marketing.
(Hey look my text is blue hehe!)

Disney didn't give a **** about racism or trying to speak their case, they just needed to check a box. And I fully agree with him, if they really want to take this fight, then stop putting these people in absolutely trash roles and trash productions.

Ok that I wholeheartedly agree with

I hope my explanation above made my point clear. The armor is of no interest. Its the value system behind what they believe makes a women strong.

I think I get where you’re coming from. I think

Like the Finn character say, you don't do these things by simply casting a black person for a role to then just throw them out as trash afterwards, after they have "played" the race card. That is not something you do because you care about an issue, but because they think it will benefit their image, these companies have departments basically doing nothing else than making sure and trying to improve their image, because it is important for companies.


Ok I see

I agree that Disney stuffs it up a lot and they only really pretend to care about issues for publicity status.
But it’s a giant conglomerate so that doesn’t really surprise me lol
I think they can do a lot better but I’m not holding my breath
At least they are offering some good portrayals of different cultures with some of their projects though (Encanto, Coco, Moana etc) and I’ll kind of take what I can get lol

 

[Nimos]

Well, what exactly do you mean by depicting men as women? In terms of portraying sensitivity in men I mean?

My point is that if we imagine we wanted to show something as being cute. Lets say we agree that a kitten looks cute:

Now imagine that the moment we want to make something else look cute, we just make it look like a kitten, because clearly that is what cute is. So doesn't matter what it is, if we want a ball to look cute, throw or make it look like kitten doesn't matter.

But other things can be cute, without having to throw or make it look like a kitten.

Are those good examples of portraying such sensitivity in male characters, in your opinion?

Yes, I think that is perfectly fine and a good way to do it.

And indeed what do you think would qualify as the opposite?

To stay in the Lord of the rings universe the orcs are not depicted as being very sensitive.

Whilst I do agree with your sentiment, indeed a lot of the time portrayals of strong independent women in modern media tends to go horribly. Just making them act stoic or flawless without celebrating them as actual people. Ignoring traditional displays of femininity
Is that what you qualify as “men’s characteristics” being thrown on women? Because if so I would largely agree.

Yes, basically.
In a lot of new movies, women, not referring to look, but how the are told to be, so often how they will show that a women is strong is by making her a Mary sue character. Which is basically a character without any flaws, where everything just falls in their lap, because they are just so damn awesome, they can do everything, are never mistaken. They don't need anyone else, because they are independent and just freaking awesome and got this **** figured out already. Even if they do something clearly stupid, they end up being correct, because again, they have no flaws.

That to me is not a strong women or even close to one, that to me can only be understood two ways. Either the creators of these characters think the people and especially women think this is awesome and "stupid" enough to buy it or it is an indirect insult to women, to depict them as simply getting everything handed to them for no reason, that they don't have to do anything to achieve stuff, because they are the freaking ****, just because they are women.

That is why when you see the new Star wars movies with Rey, why they are so absolutely trash, because she is the main character, but has no flaws, she doesn't earn anything, she can just do it, because she is that awesome. And it completely ruins her, both as a character, because it so boring to watch someone that doesn't develop or need anything, and honestly her as a women because it makes her look like a doll without any character. Leia in the obiwan comedy, is yet another character completely ruined.

There are so many movies that knows how to do strong women, Lara croft, Ripley from Alien, Terminator, even Lord of the rings, Leia in the SW the OT, Game of thrones (eventually they destroy them, but what can you do)

To me, its just annoying, because I would personally find it offensive and we know they can make strong female characters, if they cared to get some competent writers.

I’m not sure I entirely agree. Sure we will always have racists but that doesn’t mean we should merely consign ourselves to essentially let them off the hook whenever they harass a star for racial reasons.
Though I do agree that Disney can pat itself on the back prematurely and indeed foster a lot of outbursts due to their marketing.
(Hey look my text is blue hehe!)

Its not about letting it fly, but we also have to be realistic, SW throwing out one pile of junk after another with a black character to throw under the bus, is not going to solve the issue. In fact I would argue that it makes it worse.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know, my knowledge of Game of thrones is purely from the tv series, some of the hardcore fans might complain about it, I don't know. Im at the mercy of the tv series writers on this one.
I do like the darker style more compared to the Rings of Power, some of the stuff from it that I have seen, seem cheap compared to the Game of throne one. But time will tell. The dragons looks freaking awesome

Aegon I, when he conquered Westeros took the swords of those who defeated and used his dragon Balerion to heat the swords up enough to shape the Iron Throne. The throne itself is still so dangerous with jagged edges that Aerys II, the Mad King, would get injured on it so often that people began to call him the Scabbed King. It's also much taller to make it more imposing and intimidating.

And the Targaryns have violet eyes in the book, meaning Danny would have looked more like this.

And of the biggest changes though, out of absolute necessity, many of the characters where made years older in the TV show so they'd be adults. Such as Danaerys, who is 13 in the first book. But for all the sex and nudity they made many of the characters (Including Rob and Jon) adults by our standards rather than adults by past standards.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now Stan lee's net worth when he died is estimated to be around 50 million dollars,

I find that shocking givin Stan Lee helped create something akin to American mythologies and other such stories and characters that America largely lacks. Like Spiderman. Arachnophobia is common but Spiderman is one of the most highly ranked comic book heroes with some polls putting him as the most beloved comic book hero we have.

 

[SomeRandom]

My point is that if we imagine we wanted to show something as being cute. Lets say we agree that a kitten looks cute:
View attachment 64761
Now imagine that the moment we want to make something else look cute, we just make it look like a kitten, because clearly that is what cute is. So doesn't matter what it is, if we want a ball to look cute, throw or make it look like kitten doesn't matter.

But other things can be cute, without having to throw or make it look like a kitten.

Yes, I think that is perfectly fine and a good way to do it.


To stay in the Lord of the rings universe the orcs are not depicted as being very sensitive.


Yes, basically.
In a lot of new movies, women, not referring to look, but how the are told to be, so often how they will show that a women is strong is by making her a Mary sue character. Which is basically a character without any flaws, where everything just falls in their lap, because they are just so damn awesome, they can do everything, are never mistaken. They don't need anyone else, because they are independent and just freaking awesome and got this **** figured out already. Even if they do something clearly stupid, they end up being correct, because again, they have no flaws.

That to me is not a strong women or even close to one, that to me can only be understood two ways. Either the creators of these characters think the people and especially women think this is awesome and "stupid" enough to buy it or it is an indirect insult to women, to depict them as simply getting everything handed to them for no reason, that they don't have to do anything to achieve stuff, because they are the freaking ****, just because they are women.

That is why when you see the new Star wars movies with Rey, why they are so absolutely trash, because she is the main character, but has no flaws, she doesn't earn anything, she can just do it, because she is that awesome. And it completely ruins her, both as a character, because it so boring to watch someone that doesn't develop or need anything, and honestly her as a women because it makes her look like a doll without any character. Leia in the obiwan comedy, is yet another character completely ruined.

There are so many movies that knows how to do strong women, Lara croft, Ripley from Alien, Terminator, even Lord of the rings, Leia in the SW the OT, Game of thrones (eventually they destroy them, but what can you do)

To me, its just annoying, because I would personally find it offensive and we know they can make strong female characters, if they cared to get some competent writers.


Its not about letting it fly, but we also have to be realistic, SW throwing out one pile of junk after another with a black character to throw under the bus, is not going to solve the issue. In fact I would argue that it makes it worse.

Ok now I see what you mean.
I might quibble on some details but I think you and I are in agreement on this

 

[Nimos]

Aegon I, when he conquered Westeros took the swords of those who defeated and used his dragon Balerion to heat the swords up enough to shape the Iron Throne. The throne itself is still so dangerous with jagged edges that Aerys II, the Mad King, would get injured on it so often that people began to call him the Scabbed King. It's also much taller to make it more imposing and intimidating.

I seem to remember them mentioning something like that in Game of thrones, so should the throne even exist at this point? or maybe it takes place after its creation?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I seem to remember them mentioning something like that in Game of thrones, so should the throne even exist at this point? or maybe it takes place after its creation?

Honestly, it has always intrigued me that the Iron Throne--a symbol of and forged by Targaryn domination--wasn't abolished after Robert's Rebellion.and the realms made sovereign again as overthrowing the Targaryns wasn't the primary goal that lead to Robert Baratheon rebelling against the Targaryns (it was more of a personal grudge between Robert and Rhaegar Targaryn, who abducted Lyanna Stark who herself was betrothed to Robert).

 

[Nimos]

Honestly, it has always intrigued me that the Iron Throne--a symbol of and forged by Targaryn domination--wasn't abolished after Robert's Rebellion.and the realms made sovereign again as overthrowing the Targaryns wasn't the primary goal that lead to Robert Baratheon rebelling against the Targaryns (it was more of a personal grudge between Robert and Rhaegar Targaryn, who abducted Lyanna Stark who herself was betrothed to Robert).

Well now I saw this in an interview about it and now I'm very worried that we are getting yet another stupid tv show, with the same message, which has been forced down our throats the last many years. Where men per definition suck *** and women are just the best!! What the hell, why can't they just make these things without having to throw all these messages into our faces constantly. Why can't they just make stupid men and stupid women and wise men and wise women?

When shaping the first season, the showrunners realized a theme was coming into focus — one they hadn’t expected: The patriarchy would rather destroy itself than see a woman on the throne.

“It wasn’t something where we said, ‘We must make the show about this,'” Sapochnik says. “But rather it’s something where we realized that’s what we had in front of us.”

As Cooke puts it: “There are times where Emma is on one stage and I’m on the other and we’re both surrounded by [male characters] being idiotic. And we know if all these men just ****ed off, and it was just us two, the realm would be fine. It’s the meddling and the peacocking and egos that completely muddy everything.”

Also found this very funny

“In medieval times, giving birth was violence,” Sapochnik says. “It’s as dangerous as it gets. You have a 50/50 chance of making it.

Now if there is 50/50 chance of making it and two children are needed for simply making sure that the population stays in balance (Mother and Father), it doesn't require one to be a mathematician to figure out what that would mean for the human population, we would statistically have gone extinct from having given birth alone