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Featured Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Zechariah 11:12-13 is about Judas Iscariot, the 3rd shepherd of Zechariah 11:8. Zechariah 11:14-17, is about the 2nd staff, who would be Peter, and who would leave the flock (Zechariah 11:17), as shown in Acts 15:7, whereas supposedly Peter leaves the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:6). You might consider finding a better translation. The "worthless shepherd", Peter, is along with Paul, the staff "Favor", the two shepherds to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). Judas, the 3rd shepherd, was to be annihilated along with the other two, in one month/generation.
     
  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The master deceiver has certainly got you by the you know whats. Your detestable hatred of Peter and Paul, who were chosen by Jesus, along with Judas, who is the only one of the 12 who was destined to be lost, has blinded you to the truths as revealed in the scriptures.
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Zechariah 11:12-13 is about Judas Iscariot, the 3rd shepherd of Zechariah 11:8. Zechariah 11:14-17, is about the 2nd staff, who would be Peter, and who would leave the flock (Zechariah 11:17), as shown in Acts 15:7, whereas supposedly Peter leaves the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:6). You might consider finding a better translation. The "worthless shepherd", Peter, is along with Paul, the staff "Favor", the two shepherds to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). Judas, the 3rd shepherd, was to be annihilated along with the other two, in one month/generation.
    Zechariah 11 is about 3 shepherds, not one (Zechariah 11:8) "Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month". Peter wasn't "lost", he was simply "sifted like wheat by Satan" (Luke 22:31).
     
  4. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    Hey Deeje, how do you know, and why are you so confident that the bible is the fulfillment of Christian beliefs?

    Does the bible say it is?
     
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that of the three that were ANNIHILATED, only one was lost? ANNIHILATE: 'To destroy completely, to wipe out, to reduce to nothingness."
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since Christ himself is the example that we are to follow, then we should see how Jesus taught.....what Jesus taught....and what kind of people became his disciples.

    The apostle Peter wrote...." As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. 17 Honour everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honour the emperor. . . . For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God’s approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." (RSVCE)

    What did Jesus do when he taught his disciples? He always taught from the word of God. He said in John 17:17..."Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth."

    1 Peter 2:12...."Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation."

    So those who profess to be "Christians" cannot be such in name only....they have to adhere to God's word....follow Jesus' example, and be identified by "good conduct". Taking the history of the Roman Catholic Church into account up to the present, can you see that the church has fulfilled any of those requirements?

    They have complete disregard for God's word if it gets in the way of their traditions. (Something that Jesus castigated the Pharisees for) They will choose the man-made tradition over the Bible. (Matthew 15:7-9)

    Do the leaders of the church follow Jesus' example in their teaching or their institutional practices, such as forbidding priests to marry and cloistering people away with vows of silence when Jesus told his disciples to go out and preach? (Matthew 28:19-20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5)

    How can they claim to love their own spiritual family when in times of war, they have killed their own brethren at the command of their governments. Can your brother in Christ ever be your enemy? And besides, we are to love our enemies...not kill them. (Matthew 5:44-45) What war have the clergy not supported?

    Did Jesus wear distinctive robes identifying himself by some sort of title? Did he tell anyone to call him "Father"? (Matthew 23:9)

    Is the Catholic church known for its adherents being people of fine conduct? Would there be millions of dollars being paid to child abuse victims all over the world if even the clergy were known for their good conduct? This is not to disparage the good people in the church, but it is hitting at the institution itself. Its not how it views itself, but how Christ views it that matters.

    Did we read of Jesus doing or advocating any of this?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    It is so far removed from anything that Christ taught, but so ingrained in the Catholic population after centuries of this departure from true worship, that hardly anyone questions it. But IMO you must, in view of Matthew 7:21-23.
     
  7. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    No, I'm serious... How do you know that the bible is the fulfillment of the Christian faith?

    Please explain why oral teachings, not found in the bible, are automatically evil and not Christ-like. Where does the bible state this exactly..? word for word.

    (And please refrain from using scriptures out of their original context in attempt to stretch them into teachings that are multi-meaning)

    ...If you cannot do it, then your entire argument holds no value.
     
    #107 Cooky, Dec 29, 2018
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  8. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    Oh Deeje, you act as though the clergy should be extra-human and incapable of sin... We're all sinners because we're all human. Even you are a sinner.

    ...I completely disagree with the entirety of your sentiments in this post. You really have no business trying to shame the Church unless you can demonstrate that your church members are all 100% sin free. Otherwise it's just a childs game of 'who sins worse'.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    So am I.

    Because without the Bible giving us the complete story from Genesis to Revelation, we would know nothing of the Christ or his role in the redemption of mankind. He gave us all the instruction we need to fulfill our own role as his disciples. He gave us the message....the method of preaching it, and the outcome for all who respond and obey. Why do we need more? There was nothing to add. It seems as if the church did not know when to stop adding and adding.

    Oral traditions crept into Judaism too....Jesus left us in no doubt how he felt about those who choose tradition over God's word. (Read Matthew 23)

    If the oral teachings are not in agreement with what Jesus taught, then they are not from God. They are "evil" if they contradict the teachings of Jesus, especially if they lead people away from God, rather than to him. Satan's greatest pleasure is getting humans to disobey God's commands. It separates them from God.

    I have provided scripture for your information. But you follow a faith that does not adhere to scripture anyway, so what does it matter what the Bible says?
    The church is not God, nor is the Bible a product of the Catholic church. Not a word in it was written by a Catholic. God can use even his enemies to accomplish his will.

    You are free to read them in context...they will still apply in principle as all scripture does.

    Can you respond to any of those scriptures to defend your church? How does the context make any difference?
     
    #109 Deeje, Dec 29, 2018
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When did I say we were perfect? The "clergy" are doubly accountable because they are teachers who will render an account. (Hebrews 13:17)
    Incidentally, there were no clergy in first century Christianity. No priests.

    Please just address the issues. If we don't know the "wheat" from the "weeds" then we are in big trouble.
     
  11. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    Well that can't be true, Deeje because several hundreds of years passed before the bible was published, and generations of Christians lived out their entire lives without the scripture... And they most certainly did know things about the Christ and his role in the redemption of mankind. So you're wrong there.

    Nothing was added though Deeje, things were just expanded on and clarified.

    Please stop comparing / drawing parallels to things that are not exactly the same. This is know as "abstraction", and while it is a natural human tendency, it's not always correct. As I mentioned earlier, Christians survived for centuries without the bible, and relied solely on oral traditions.

    Yes, which is why there are no Catholic teachings that contradict scripture... Nobody is obligated to genuflect or pray in front of statues. And nobody Is praying to statues. To suggest otherwise is a display of dishonesty.

    I find that comment to be not only rude, but dishonest.

    Yes, the bible actually was written by Catholics. Later, those writings were sifted through, and compiled by Roman Catholic clergymen. :)

    Then please do show me the scripture that explains that the bible is the sole source of Christian teaching.

    Which scriptures are you asking about?
     
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  12. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    But we were talking about sin. And now you cite a verse based on obeying those who rule over you. You're way out of context, seeming to attempt to use scripture to fit your agenda.

    If there were no priests in the first century, then why did Jesus choose 12 apostles? Why didn't he just make all of his followers apostles?

    Also, how do you explain Hebrews 4:14-10:18, where scripture calls Jesus "High Priest"?
    20 Bible verses about Christ, The High Priest

    Also how do you explain Peter the Apostle acting as bishop, deciding on how the Law of Moses should be applied, and whether or not uncircumsized men could be baptized and welcomed into the Church?
    Council of Jerusalem - Wikipedia


    Address what issues? That men are all sinners?

    ...And with figuring out the wheat from the weeds? I fear you are in very serious trouble if you're claiming the Catholic Church as being the weeds. Because I could also say that JW lacks in charity, where a JW would watch a man starve to death naked, and only hand him a pamphlet on the good news as he dies.

    Watchtower Quotes Regarding Donating to Charity

    "Witnesses are discouraged from giving to charitable organisations"

    "Like the neighborly Samaritan in Jesus’ illustration, we want to help suffering people, including those who are not Witnesses. (Luke 10:33-37) The best way to do so is by sharing the good news with them. “It is important to make clear right away that we are Jehovah’s Witnesses and that our primary mission is to help them spiritually, not materially,”
     
    #112 Cooky, Dec 30, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2018
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  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Judas was annihilated the same as Peter and Paul. They all died and were supposedly buried, or thrown into Sheol. Different translations use different verbs. "annihilate", "got rid of", "destroyed". To fit in with Isaiah 22:18, with respect to Peter, you could use "cast into a vast country; there you will die".
     
  14. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "wheat", the righteous (Matthew 13:49), and the "tares", the "wicked"/"lawless", will be distinguished "on the day that I prepare my own possession" (Malachi 3:18). That sparing is yet future.(Malachi 3:17). And yes, the tares are apparently approaching a time of trouble (Matthew 13:40).
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    So you want your listeners to believe that Peter and Paul, who died for their faith in Jesus and his God, hated and detested the Lord? As is written in Zech 11: 8; concerning the three shepherds; GNB----I lost patience with three other shepherds who hated me, or in the RSV, who detested me.

    Good luck with that one mate, the greater majority of Christians do not hate Peter and Paul as you do.
     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "greater majority of Christians", the "many" (Matthew 7:13), have built their "house"/church on the foundation of Peter and Paul. They will find that any "house" built on such a foundation of sand, will "fall". (Matthew 7:24-27). The pope, the successor of Peter, is getting ready to "fall" "in that day". (Isaiah 22:25). Peter and his successor, the pope, have not fed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:3) & (Zechariah11:16), and will be replaced and judged (Ezekiel 34:17 & 22-23).
     
  17. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    I understand that in order for modern sects to justify their existence they must find ways to degrade the ancient Church.

    Peter and Paul were not being mentioned in the old testament book Zechariah 11:8. This is one of the worst cases of -twisting scripture to fit a narrative- that I have ever seen in my entire life.
     
  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    And you honestly believe that the pope of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, who claims to be the Shepherd of God's people, is the successor of Peter who died because of his faith in the truth of God's word, which you have abandoned, do you?

    2 Peter 3: 15; Look on the Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear brother Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him. This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters, which IGNORANT AND MENTALLY UNSTABLE PEOPLE EXPLAIN FALSLY, as they do with other passages in scripture. So they bring on their own destruction.

    Peter and Paul, both faithful apostles of the Lord, who are hated and despised by such ignorant and unstable people..
     
  19. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    And some question who the real tares are.
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "tares" would be the "wicked"/"lawless"/sinners (Matthew 13:49), who think they are saved, and will be "Raptured", gathered up, before the sky begins to fall. The problem with that scenario, is that the "tares" are gathered up "first" and burned, and then the "wheat" is put "into my barn" (Matthew 13:30). The new "covenant", the "covenant with death", "shall be cancelled" (Isaiah 28:18), and the "tares" will be looking for a rock to hide under (Revelation 6:16).
     
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