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Featured Comparing Catholic Beliefs with the Teachings of Jesus in Scripture

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    The Puritans (I assume you mean the New England ones) were pretty much a completely different religion from the Catholics. They banned all images in worship, believed in double predestination, forbade gambling and card games along with men and women dancing together, didn't believe in the grace of baptism, had no priests or sacraments, and didn't celebrate Christmas. They were also staunchly Calvinist.

    1: Not all Protestants are caricatures of the Bible Belt.
    2: As much as I disagree with a lot of Protestant theologies, calling them "despicables" is beneath the dignity and calling of a Christian. I know many Protestants who are of upstanding moral and intellectual character, and are an absolute pleasure to be around.
     
    #81 Shiranui117, Dec 18, 2018
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  2. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    So you use the Old Testament and the Gospel of Matthew. Anything else?

    Also, I assume you are saying you don't have a list of books (a canon). Though I would also assume you don't have a piece of artillery in your possession (a cannon).
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are correct, I do not have a cannon, but that is not to say, that I am weaponless.
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    It is the "bible belt", gun toting, bible pounding, despicable Protestants, who stopped witch Hillary from having another 4 years in office. I think they see the sky "falling" (Revelation 16:21), and are looking for rock to hide under (Revelation 16:16). They just don't know where to look. They can't stop the "majority" east and west coast Liberal voters, the "many" (Matthew 7:13), but they can keep the Senate in check. The "cities" of the nations, which house the Liberal voters will "fall" (Revelation 16:19).
     
    #84 2ndpillar, Dec 18, 2018
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  5. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    1: Hillary was never in office in the first place. Her husband was.
    2: It takes a lot more than just the Bible Belt to win an election for the Republicans. Trump couldn't have done it without several crucial swing states, such as Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania.
    3: Revelation is not a description of American politics (as much as we think the world is ending every time an election happens these days).
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Funny, I thought I already addressed all that.....it's the law to do so, and we abide by the law. Are you suggesting that we don't?
     
  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    You've said before that JWs won't report abuse allegations without "two witnesses."
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Revelation is a description of the "what is shortly to take place" (Revelation 1:1). We are now at the "end of the age", and at the end, the "demon spirits" will gather the kings/leaders of all the nations to Har-Magedon, the "valley of judgment (Joel 3:2) & (Zechariah 14:1-3), and Hillary as one time leader of the State Department, and her boss, Obama, are typical demon spirit led leaders, who would be more than glad to step on Jerusalem of the Jews, and give it to their Muslim supporters. The rust belt workers voted in their best interest, which is jobs. They simply squeezed by the "many" of the welfare cities. Plus like my family, who are all Catholics, except for one, with medical cost concerns, all voted for Trump. The Catholics may be lost to the greater degree, but they are not totally blind with respect to their own welfare. The coastline Liberals are like lemmings, all following their demon led leaders over the cliff. They act irrationally, because their demon spirits see their end coming.
     
    #88 2ndpillar, Dec 18, 2018
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  9. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Said everyone ever.

    People in the 80's said this about Reagan, people in the 1800's were saying this about Napoleon, people in the 40's were saying this about Hitler, Stalin and Mao, people in the 1400's were saying this about the Ottomans, people in the 1200's were saying this about the Mongols, people in the 600's were saying this about Muhammad, and people in the time of Revelation were saying this about the Romans.

    For the most part, the only Catholics who vote Democrat are Catholics who don't support the Catholic Church's stances on things like abortion and gay marriage. Almost every single Catholic I've met is staunchly pro-life and therefore votes against the Democrats on principle.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you for your response.

    Yes, but Jesus foretold that the devil would sow seeds of false Christianity "while men were sleeping". This could mean either the death of the apostles (whom the Bible says would sleep in death until Christ's return) or the fact that men went to sleep spiritually, as was evident in the state of the church when it was overtaken by Rome.

    The Emperor's agenda was clear.....to mend the religious division in his empire, he consolidated the people into one faith, which was not true to the beliefs of either group. It was a fusion of Roman paganism and extremely weak Christianity.

    Beliefs that were adopted from pagan ideas included the worship of more than one god. (three gods were fused into one "head" to avoid the accusation of polytheism) Elevating Mary to a status that the Bible never gave her (mother goddess worship is seen in many ancient cultures and the titles given to these were transferred to Mary) Immortality of the human soul was not a Jewish teaching, but adopted later due to Greek influence. The souls or spirits of the dead needed somewhere to go, so places were invented or borrowed from paganism to accommodate them. Hell, purgatory and Limbo came to be accepted even though there are no such places mentioned in the Bible. In fact there is no life after death (as a continuation of conscious life in spirit form) as a teaching of Jesus at all. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) "Hell" (sheol, hades) was simply the grave, where we all go.

    Pagan religions also have a heaven of bliss for the good......but this idea of heaven is not taken from the Bible. Only some were chosen for heavenly roles that are specific to rulership and priesthood. (Revelation 20:6) These heavenly rulers will have earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4) Not all Christians go to heaven.

    I have to disagree with that. Jesus indicated that "weeds" of false Christianity were going to be sown in the world. Who was going to sow those seeds and fertilise them? Jesus said that the devil sowed them, so he would continue to furnish the circumstances to keep them flourishing. Ask any gardener how well weeds grow compared to plants that we want to see doing well in a garden.

    If what was taken to all nations was not true Christianity, then we would expect that the actions of the church would reflect a condition that largely left Christ out of the picture. What did the actions of the church in those early centuries indicate? History tells us.

    According to my understanding of history, all I see is "weed-like" Christianity being promoted by a religious empire that had ultimate power over the rulers of the nations it controlled, who were often converted to Catholicism at the point of a sword, but supposedly doing so by claiming divine authority. Their conduct was not a reflection of Christ's actions or teachings at all. Bloodshed was indicative of anti-Christian attitudes. Power corrupts....and nowhere was power more abused than in the actions of the Roman church throughout its ugly history.

    Sectarianism and abuse of power is what caused division in Judaism and brought about its ultimate downfall when their Messiah came, and due to false expectations, the hierarchy rejected him, influencing a serially rebellious nation to reject him too. (Matthew 23:37-39)

    Sectarianism is also apparently killing "Christianity". The best way to disguise true Christianity is to provide so many fakes that no one knows who to believe. The Reformation opened the floodgates for a multitude of sects all claiming to teach the truth. The devil is an expert at creating confusing and doubt.

    Yes, we were told by Jesus to "give Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God" but apparently the church gave to Caesar what belonged to God, supporting what God condemned. Those who opposed that evil regime were in the concentration camps, not cosying up to a deranged despot.

    We were told to be "no part of this world".....but that is not what we see. We were also told to "love our enemies" but the churches justify their nation's bloodshed. In the World Wars of last century, that involved "Christians" killing their own brothers. The military and the church are bedfellows. (James 4:4)

    In reality, pure Christianity had all but died in the years when Roman Catholicism dominated the world scene. Any who challenged the doctrines of the church experienced the same reception as God's prophets had done in Israel. Rather than listen and repent, they silenced the messenger. The last messenger to be silenced by Judaism was Jesus Christ.

    Judaism's counterpart Christendom, travelled a similar path. Power corrupted them too and false doctrines based on man made traditions and adopted beliefs, if they were ever challenged, were silenced by the church in very unchristian fashion.

    I suppose anyone can justify the actions of their church if they want to....but the truth is the truth, and in this particular time in history, we are going to see just how corrupt this world really is and what part the church played in us getting to this state. God promised to lift the lid. (2 Peter 3:9-10) World powers have been supported by the actions of men who should have known better. Without the support of the church, many of the atrocities in history would never have taken place. According to the Bible, God requires accountability. (Hebrews 4:13) I am grateful that he has appointed a righteous judge, but we need to know the basis for his judgment and make our own choices accordingly.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Well, apparently they didn't read Joel 3:1, Zechariah 14:1-3, or Revelation 16:13-19. For you can't "capture" Jerusalem from Judah/Jews, until first it has been restored to Judah, which happened in 1967. We are now one Jubilee away from that event. And it is not about one man, it is about "all the kings of the nations" (Revelation 16:13-19). Obama got 120 nations to condemn Israel at a conference in Paris, in 2017, which would be a gathering of the nations against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3).
     
    #91 2ndpillar, Dec 18, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I don't recall saying that, but it is a biblical standard established in God's law so that unsubstantiated accusations could not result in false prosecutions.

    Child abuse was a problem even for the courts because of lack of evidence. So it wasn't just us calling on a biblical law, but the justice system itself having problems with a crime that was not witnessed by others.

    Again, our elders are not the police. The decision to prosecute a child molester is up to the parents. The Law now requires that if our elders come to hear of such an accusation they are compelled by law to report it. We are all aware of that as the congregations are kept abreast of all the things that could potentially involve them in the future. The Law has so many more ways at their disposal these days to confirm that abuse has taken place. None of that was available in times past.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    And again with the First, Second, and Third Great Awakenings... the third of these eventually producing - among many groups - the Jehovah's Witnesses (by way of the Bible Student movement).

    Your own religion is a product of the process you blame the devil for.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No, it isn't actually....and I'll tell you why. (even if you don't really want to hear it.) :D You made the statement, so I will respond to it....

    There is a series of prophesies written in the book of Daniel, recorded 500 years before Christ was born. Daniel wrote about "the time of the end" and he was told to seal up the book because no one would understand it until that time arrived. We are living in "the time of the end" right now.....but no one knows how long this time period is to last. We know when it began, and we have tried to guess when it would end, but God has held his cards close to his chest, making sure that all have made a decision before he acts. (Matthew 24:37-39)

    Daniel saw in vision, the march of world powers whose rulerships touched God's people.....beginning with Babylon, he foretold that Medo-Persia would conquer this powerful empire by walking in through unlocked gates.....it happened just as it was predicted.

    Medo-Persia was thereafter conquered by Greece when Alexander the Great was building his empire. But it was prophesied that Alexander would be killed and his empire divided into four states. He was replaced by four generals who each ruled over a portion of the Grecian Empire. Then the mighty Roman Empire took control and was the ruling power when Christ walked the earth. But Rome was not conquered by anyone....it fell due to its own decadence, and out of the ashes of Rome, sprang Britannia. In the time of the end, the British Empire would form an alliance with the USA, and that is the time when individual world empires would end. It is in the time of this dual world power that God brings his kingdom in to take over earth's rulership, as its rightful Sovereign. (Daniel Ch 2) It is not surrendered willingly, but taken over by force. (Daniel 2:44)

    In these times, God was also going to "cleanse, whiten and refine" his people. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) Towards the end of the 19th century, a group of men were drawn together and formed a Bible study group. They were from several different "Christian" denominations so they were not a breakaway from any one church. Their aim was to examine the Bible carefully to see if all the doctrines that Christendom had formulated over the centuries were actually backed up by scripture. Every doctrine was taken apart and all the scriptural proof was examined carefully in the light of the whole Bible. One by one, Christendom's doctrines were dissected, evaluated, rejected and abandoned.

    The process of 'cleansing, whitening and refining' had begun. It was a lengthy process as nothing was dismissed without thorough investigation.
    Why would there be a need to "cleanse" if the church was not in an unclean condition? Why "whiten" if there was no unsightly stain? And why "refine" if there were no impurities to remove?

    "The International Bible Students" (as we were then known) was formed as these men began to disseminate their finding in a weekly newsletter, that eventually became The Watchtower Magazine. Many people saw the truth of their findings and joined their ranks to study the scriptures for themselves. In 1931 we adopted the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" taken from Isaiah 43:10. This also reflected the role of Jesus as our leader...the "faithful and true witness". (Revelation 3:14)

    In the 20th century the Watchtower magazine became the most widely distributed magazine in the world. Christendom responded in much the same way as the Pharisees responded to Jesus and his apostles. In this 21st century we are eight and half million strong, found in every nation on earth, and growing rapidly as we see these last days drawing to a close.

    So that is why I believe that JW's are not like any other church. We have no beliefs in common with Christendom and we stand alone in carrying out all the commands of Jesus....even the inconvenient ones. Jesus said we would be hated because of doing that. (John 15:18-21)

    That is why I made my choice to serve the true God after being raised in the Anglican Church for the first 20 years of my life.....I realized that Christendom doesn't even worship the same God as Jesus did.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "another king" who will arise after the 4th "beast" with the 10 horns, which would be the Roman republic and the Roman Empire which destroyed Jerusalem, was the 7th head of the beast, who will "subdue three kings" (Daniel 7:23-25), who would "make alterations in time and law", would be Constantine, who intended to change the Sabbath day to become the "day of the sun", and as the beast with two horns like a lamb, was to "deceive those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). We are now in the era of he 8th head of the beast, who also was to have 10 horns, and is represented by the feet of iron and clay (Daniel 2:34-35). The U.S. and Britain were instrumental in restoring Judah and Jerusalem (Joel 3:1), via the 1st and 2nd world wars. The British ANZAC crushed the iron and clay (Turks and Germans) in 1918, at the battle of Megiddo. (Daniel 2:34). They were to be again crushed along with all the other nations per (Daniel 2:35). As per Daniel 2:10, the JWs are without "understanding", because they are "wicked"/lawless, in as much as they do not keep the Law. The "holy people", the righteous, those who keep the law, of Daniel 12:7, have been under persecution for time, times and half a time, and they are certainly not the followers of the false prophet Paul, which would include the JWs.

    The JWs hold onto the canon of the Roman church, keep their false prophets, as well as keep their "day of the sun" as a day to worship God.
     
  16. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    And people reading their own particular geopolitical circumstances into the Bible have all come up with claims that bore the same apparent strength. I see no reason why your doomsday prediction is any different.
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The restoration of "Judah" and "Jerusalem" (Joel 3:1), have nothing to do with my "particular geopolitical circumstances", for "Judah", the Jews, became a nation in 1948, and "Jerusalem", was fully recaptured by "Judah" in 1967. Two Jubilees later, we have the U.S. pulling out of Syria, to protect our soldiers, and Iran, after 150 billion infusion of cash from Obama, is ready and willing to send their missiles to destroy Israel, but will end up destroying the surrounding nations. (Zephaniah 2).
     
  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Every Christian denomination believes that it has a special claim to be God's preferred denomination. Every Christian denomination thinks that it fulfills prophecy better than any other denomination.

    Nothing in what you said makes the Jehovah's Witnesses unique. It certainly doesn't change the fact that if - or at least its predecessor, the Bible Students - emerged as just one example of the larger trends of the Third Great Awakening.

    I get that you - just like any religious adherent - think your belief system is special, but to an outsider, it's just one of countless many.

    Edit: and it's very much a part of the branching and splintering of Christianity that you just condemned.
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How do you prove it though? What evidence do you think is required to confirm that you have the "right" one?

    You are forgetting that there is a master deceiver who rules this world. (1 John 5:19) His MO has been consistent throughout time.
    He is a counterfeiter, making fake copies of worship systems that confuse people and lead them down the wrong path. (Matthew 7:13-14) He knows what humans want.
    He plays on their weaknesses, and gives them what they want, as opposed to what God wants and what Jesus taught. The road to life is "cramped and narrow".....not many want to choose the hard way.....so if you make the road to death look like the road to life by making it easy....bingo!

    These are the "weeds" that Jesus said would be planted by the devil.....a counterfeit of the original. Why would Jesus say that "few" will choose the right road? Think about it.

    That is just what satan wants people to think. He creates confusion because they are all so similar.....yet the small differences don't really matter. But the way Jesus explains it.....it isn't the similarities, but the complete difference that reveals the true faith from the corrupted fakes....the "wheat" from the "weeds".

    JW's have no major doctrinal beliefs that agree with Christendom's.
    We are nothing like them. This is how I know I have personally made the right choice. I checked out every teaching that I grew up with and realised that Jesus never taught any of them. Those differences are all supported by the Bible's overall teachings.

    I can show you that this is just not true.....any more than Christianity was a branching or splintering of Judaism.

    Jesus did not come to create a new religion.....he came to clean up the old one. The majority chose to stick with their comfortable old form of worship....so confident that they could condone Jesus' death on the say so of their corrupt leaders. (Matthew 27:25)
    Daniel foretold that another 'cleansing' of God's worship would take place in "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:9-10)

    We believe that we represent the fulfilment of that prophesy. Others may disagree.
    We are not a breakaway from any of Christendom's denominations, but have walked away from all of them by cleaning out false beliefs, cleansing ourselves of false religious teachings and practices, and refining our worship by removing so many impurities that were added over many centuries.

    This thread is showing that the "mother church" has led her 'daughters' into false worship. Like the disciples in the first century, who had to remove themselves from a system of worship that had been corrupted by men, we have to do that too. (Revelation 18:4) The same devil has never changed his MO. He knows what works.

    That is what we believe.
     
  20. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    There is indeed a master deceiver at work in the world, who has convinced his bride the mother church, from whose spirit=teachings the JWs and the majority of Christian denominations were spawned, that Jesus was an eternal God, who existed before the creation of the cosmos and who, some two thousand years ago, came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed virgin and created for himself a human-like body in which he could walk the earth disguised as a descendant of Adam.

    The good ol' church which was established by King Constantine, was established according to the plane of God. But, does that make it righteous?

    Many were the leaders of Nations that God rose up as his rod to chastise his son "Israel," the actions of God were righteous, the actions of those leaders whose hated of Israel God used to accomplish his will, were not righteous.

    Acts 2: 23; In accordance with his own plan God had already decided that Jesus would be handed over to you; and you killed him by letting sinful men crucify him. Does this mean that the act of Judas's betrayal, which was in accordance with God's plan, was a righteous act? The act according to God's plan, is justified in the end result, but does that justify the intent of Judas?

    Zechariah 11: 12-17; speaks of the plan of God, to raise up a worthless shepherd, to guide his stubborn flock after they had valued him (As seen in his obedient servant Jesus, who he had filled with his spirit) at 30 pieces of silver. This worthless shepherd that God rose up to fulfil his purpose, is the church of Constantine, who, with her daughter bodies have spread their misleading teaching throughout the earth, which was the will of God, that the minds of the people should be made dull, their eyes blind, and their ears deaf to the truth, otherwise, to receive the great reward that is offered to those who are able to win the victory, they would have turned to God while still in their sins, and he would have to have forgiven them.

    Christ the anointed one whose spirit filled the body of his earthly host body, “Jesus” used that body established by Constantine, to fulfil the mission that was given to him by God. Isaiah 6: 8-19; (8) Then I heard the Lord say, “Whom shall I send? Who will be our messenger?” I answered, “I will go! Send me!” (9) So the Lord told me to go and give the people this message: “No matter how much you listen, you will not understand. No matter how much you look, you will not know what is happening.” Then He said to me, “Make the minds of these people dull, their ears deaf and their eyes blind, so that they cannot see or hear or understand, If they did, they might turn to me and be healed.”

    Matthew 13: 14; The reason I use parables in talking to the people, is that they will look, but will not see, and they listen, but hear not, nor understand. (14) So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them; “This people will listen and listen, but not understand; they will look and look, but not see, because their minds are dull, and they have stopped up their ears and have closed their eyes. Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me says God, and I would heal them, (While still in their sins.)

    Again, the intent of the Lord is righteous, in raising up the worthless shepherd, and given them over to believe the lie, in order that only those who would endure in the truth of his word, would win the victory, while the intent of the church was to seek out and devour and become bloated on the fat of the lambs of God’s flock.

    O! You shepherd of the darkness who claims God sent him out
    And even though we know that’s true, that fact I wouldn’t flout
    For God commanded Zechariah, “Throw my wages ‘cross the floor,
    Those thirty bits of silver, for I’ll guide this flock no more
    A worthless shepherd now I’ll raise to guide this stubborn flock
    And he will be a useless one, of him I’ll take no stock
    For he’ll not feed my little ones, nor search for them that’s lost
    But he eats the meat of the fattest sheep. And their hoofs? He tears them off
    That worthless shepherd, he is doomed for abandoning my flock
    His power, will I destroy by war, his arm will wither dry, then drop
    And his right eye will I turn Blind, that’s why he’s never seen
    The passage where I speak of him, Zechariah eleven—twelve to seventeen.

    Zechariah 13: 7, The Lord Almighty says, “Wake up Sword, and attack the shepherd who works for me! Kill him, etc.

    All bodies must die then go off into judgment, even the religious bodies that have burned the pagans at the stake, who have murdered, how many thousands of women, who were accused by their husbands as witches, knowing that the church who forbade them to divorce their wives would burn or drown them as witches instead. And how many atrocities were perpetrated during the inquisition? There is not enough room in this entire forum to record the sins of the church of Constantine which has fulfilled the purpose for which God allowed it to be established.

    But now has come the time for her to be judged, and no matter how righteous we become in the twilight of our years, no matter how repentant we are for the sins of our past, and no matter how many tears we shed in the passion of our despair, we must all pay the blood price for the mistakes of our past, even those whose are judged while alive and the elements of their physical bodies become so excited they burn up, and disappear. But it is the hope of God, that his children will hear his call and come out of her, and that only the empty shell will be destroyed.

    Revelation 18: 4 to 8.

    Come out of her my people, do not share in her sin.
    You must not share her punishment, her judgment day has come
    Her sins are piled to heaven and God recalls her evil ways,
    She says I am no widow and I’ll never see the grave
    Because of that in just one day disease will strike her down
    Plagues and famine she’ll receive until the day she’s burned
    You must pay her back two fold for all that she has done
    Fill her cup as she filled yours, but make it twice as strong
    For all the glory she has claimed and all her luxury
    Must be repaid this very day with pain and misery.
     
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