Clear Challenges to the Trinity Doctrine

[Jeremiah Ames]

Advice? I will say that I know those that did those things and they were well aware they were not doing the right thing, even though they did not have a relationship with God until later, and then they changed. I might also mention that Jesus said the good news of God's kingdom would be preached. And if a person likes to steal and murder, I'll say that sometimes jail and/or psychiatric treatment may not help that person to change.

people change all the time.

you didn’t answer my question, but that’s ok

I don’t know the statistics, but my guess would be that more people turn away from the Christian religion than turn towards it, especially in these times where information and knowledge are so readily available to all

also considering the fact that the numbers are probably padded quite a bit by children who are raised in the religion without the ability to exercise their free will

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

We're not perfect, but it's kind of hard to tell someone what's wrong if the line is not clear. There are those claiming to be Christian ("saved," I suppose) that are set in ways that are condemned in the Bible. I do agree though that most societies believe stealing and adultery, for instance, is wrong, Christian or not.
Romans 2:14 helps to explain this: "for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;"

Yes, most societies believe stealing and adultery are wrong, and most societies believe that abortion is ok

what is the point?

I don’t hear Paul’s words in that quote, picking specific things to point out to the Gentiles to condemn them as sinners, the way so many Christians today think they must do to everyone around them

I’m going to try to convey a thought, although my skills are not so great at conversing, so please be patient

let’s say that I am a sinner and are perfectly aware of that fact, but I continue to do the sin

a. I call myself a Christian, I claim to be “saved”, and regularly go to a religious building where Christians congregate, and I do all the things in this building that the rest do

b. I am an atheist

what is the difference, if any, in my circumstances both earthly and eternally?

what do you think?

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, most societies believe stealing and adultery are wrong, and most societies believe that abortion is ok

what is the point?

The point is that the Jews were under a contract with the God who took them out of slavery to the Egyptians so they could worship Him. They were to be under the Law that God gave to Moses who then contracted with the nation. They (the nation) accepted the law to be under it as the law of God. The law had consequences written in it for breaking the Law. I'll try to do some research on this and get back to you. I really only handle usually one subject at a time, so try to be patient with me. Thank you and I like your questions, but can't promise to answer all of them

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, most societies believe stealing and adultery are wrong, and most societies believe that abortion is ok

what is the point?

I don’t hear Paul’s words in that quote, picking specific things to point out to the Gentiles to condemn them as sinners, the way so many Christians today think they must do to everyone around them

I’m going to try to convey a thought, although my skills are not so great at conversing, so please be patient

let’s say that I am a sinner and are perfectly aware of that fact, but I continue to do the sin

a. I call myself a Christian, I claim to be “saved”, and regularly go to a religious building where Christians congregate, and I do all the things in this building that the rest do

b. I am an atheist

what is the difference, if any, in my circumstances both earthly and eternally?

what do you think?

Here's one way I can answer that. Once I was speaking to a man who went to church, said he knew all about the Bible, knew he was a sinner, he said drinker and fornicator. So I asked him if he thought he'd go on fornicating in heaven. Yes, he said! And I said to myself...oh well ..and went on my way. Hope that answers your question.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, most societies believe stealing and adultery are wrong, and most societies believe that abortion is ok

what is the point?

I don’t hear Paul’s words in that quote, picking specific things to point out to the Gentiles to condemn them as sinners, the way so many Christians today think they must do to everyone around them

I’m going to try to convey a thought, although my skills are not so great at conversing, so please be patient

let’s say that I am a sinner and are perfectly aware of that fact, but I continue to do the sin

a. I call myself a Christian, I claim to be “saved”, and regularly go to a religious building where Christians congregate, and I do all the things in this building that the rest do

b. I am an atheist

what is the difference, if any, in my circumstances both earthly and eternally?

what do you think?

The Law went beyond things like murder and stealing. But there's more, I'll get back to this later when I can look things up in the Bible.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

The point is that the Jews were under a contract with the God who took them out of slavery to the Egyptians so they could worship Him. They were to be under the Law that God gave to Moses who then contracted with the nation. They (the nation) accepted the law to be under it as the law of God. The law had consequences written in it for breaking the Law. I'll try to do some research on this and get back to you. I really only handle usually one subject at a time, so try to be patient with me. Thank you and I like your questions, but can't promise to answer all of them

take all the time you want

it is very kind and thoughtful of you to attempt to answer all my questions

i will throw another at you:

does God really require worship? and what does worship look like?

i know, that was two more questions, sorry

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Here's one way I can answer that. Once I was speaking to a man who went to church, said he knew all about the Bible, knew he was a sinner, he said drinker and fornicator. So I asked him if he thought he'd go on fornicating in heaven. Yes, he said! And I said to myself...oh well ..and went on my way. Hope that answers your question.

that is a very interesting and unusual response that guy gave you

what if he’s half right; that he may continue his behavior in the afterlife, but not in heaven?
maybe God has a special place for people like that?

 

[rational experiences]

Three 3.

333 says men about a mother inference. Thesis space.

You know 333 and 333 + adding is the fake cross. 666

If you say 333 once as one only body. 333 only holy one status once.

1 and three bodies 000
1000 science about CHrist.

Now why did Christ get anti?

Christ is first the holy heavenly lord one body only heavens. Ordinance lordinance. In space womb first.

Man in satanic science occult nuclear said I denied it three times. Heavens holy form.

Presence of CHrist in heavens as spirit gas. Holy Christ is first holy lord. Spirit only.

You theory.
You lie.

You are a man human who says my holy human life is by three father mother baby.

You however say it as one adult man father self.

You ignore your own life presence by human sex.

You are a man theist scientist claiming beginngs of heavens as one body only natural light.

Yet it began burning from O gods ejection earth it became immaculate not included it ended sacrificed by sun.

Three stories referenced. Beginning to evolved ended equals beginning. Three terms.

No science allowed womb voiding burning holy life support. Spirit of real sacrifice natural light.

Science I add first by fake cross +. I don't own anything it is a fake theory. First ignored warning.
I then claim I will minus my fake addition. Fake theory second warning.

I want to do it by constant X multiples the cross on its side.

Thrice in theory for Satan burning. I then was sacrificed. By the fallen side cross I lost my owned first origin human bone body. I was hurt brother to brother life body victimised sacrificed the returned message.

How you taught and learnt his story by your less of the son. Lesson.

 

[rational experiences]

Father said memories in heaven.

His adult man image is inside the space womb recorded in its spirit imagery clouds. As a world owned heavens circuit. Clouds.

He is not how you get baby man born from sex. Humans and the real human woman womb.

In self adult man in science idolisation your womb story about man bio life is by penis ownership is not real. About heavens

Your man bio penis image emerged in nuclear explosions as you designed unnatural ground fission yourself. The image in heavens of man is without penis.

Man ground life with penis attached is affected by man image heavens not penis owner. Why your mind changed and you wondered were you a woman. Yet you had a penis.

Hierarchy behaviour over lord.

Christ was the Lord ordinances said by a man. Not was the man. Christ spirit gases that arise out of stone never any man.

Father was never ever sitting on any throne. In the overlord life you were.

You reburnt earths el ..God power crystal. Stated by geologist study the jewel. Study of stones forms.

Cannot pretend any more about lying.

You put your image sitting on the throne into the heavens why you believe in the overlord and not the Lord first.

A cloud image owns billions of images all the same as they are in cloud mass the same substance.

Life living IS NOT the same in form bio substances.

Didn't tree wood already produce that reviewed lesson for you? What lying in science thesis caused!

 

[Colt]

The fourth request for clear undisputed evidence of a trinity (or Jesus being 'equally God') asked for in part #1 above:

"Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

"(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)"

You could add "God, the Christ," "God, the Messiah," "God, the Firstborn," or any other term used exclusively for Jesus. But, surely, if the trinity were true, we would find the term "God, the Son" used equally with "God, the Father"!

Using a Bible concordance (Strong's, Young's, or an on-line concordance will do) and looking under "Son," you will find exactly zero uses of "God the Son."

Jesus is never called "God, the Son"!

……………………………………………..

Plural manifestation of "God" is found in scripture. Jesus was a revelation of his own divinity.

Visions of God even as a man, let alone sitting in a chair is a human construct.

But you make the case that had you been a scripture worshiping Jew during the times of Christ you probably would have rejected him, found him guilty of blasphemy using much of your case against his divinity in your OP.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Here's one way I can answer that. Once I was speaking to a man who went to church, said he knew all about the Bible, knew he was a sinner, he said drinker and fornicator. So I asked him if he thought he'd go on fornicating in heaven. Yes, he said! And I said to myself...oh well ..and went on my way. Hope that answers your question.

The amusing thing is that Jesus said that marriage didn’t exist in heaven, so that would mean there’s fornication, right?

 

[tigger2]

Isn’t it interesting how trinitarians won’t reply to any of the 10 clear challenges that this discussion is supposed to be about?

How about this one, then?

CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE (J)

-------- Explain how Jesus (and his disciples for many years after his death) were allowed to teach in the Temple and synagogues. If any Jews truly thought Jesus and his followers claimed that he was God, they would have been ejected (probably killed) at these times.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn’t it interesting how trinitarians won’t reply to any of the 10 clear challenges that this discussion is supposed to be about?

They don't answer because they have no 'argument' for Jesus being God. It is simply a belief they cling to.

 

[Windwalker]

It makes my head spin in circles to imagine God as a "person" in the sense of like some creature with a body and all of that. Three-faces on a body, if Trinity is true? Yikes. Where do we begin? Do I even bother?

 

[YoursTrue]

The amusing thing is that Jesus said that marriage didn’t exist in heaven, so that would mean there’s fornication, right?

hmmm no it doesn't, but since the thread is not about that, I'll just say as succinctly as possible that angels do not marry, they don't produce "offspring" in heaven. If you want to discuss this at more length, perhaps we can start another thread about that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Plural manifestation of "God" is found in scripture. Jesus was a revelation of his own divinity.

Visions of God even as a man, let alone sitting in a chair is a human construct.

But you make the case that had you been a scripture worshiping Jew during the times of Christ you probably would have rejected him, found him guilty of blasphemy using much of your case against his divinity in your OP.

As far as God sitting in a chair, the Bible says no man has seen God at any time, right?

 

[sojourner]

Let's examine, one by one, what should be found in scripture (if the trinity were true):

This one first sentence trashes your whole argument that follows. Why so? Simply: Who determines the standard and criteria for what the texts should say? Who has the authority to set that standard? What makes you such an authority to make that determination with your (obviously biased) “presentation?” Your imaginative speculations do not in any way refute the doctrine, either biblically or logically.

 

[sojourner]

Those things are noted in the Bible. However, God had prophets and they worked with and taught the nation, sometimes condemning them. But the history is long. As far as loving one's neighbor, part of that must be telling others what they have found in the jBible. Such as sins like adultery, homosexuality, stealing, murder and so forth. Things like that.

If you’d really read the Bible enough to know what’s in it, you’d know that homosexuality isn’t mentioned — sin or otherwise.

 

[tigger2]

Isn’t it interesting how trinitarians won’t reply to any of the 10 clear challenges that this discussion is supposed to be about?

How about this one, then?

CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE (J)

-------- Explain how Jesus (and his disciples for many years after his death) were allowed to teach in the Temple and synagogues. If any Jews truly thought Jesus and his followers claimed that he was God, they would have been ejected (probably killed) at these times.

….……………………….

Maybe if I do some of the research for you: Matt. 26:55; John 18:20; Acts 5:42; Acts 18:4. Does that make it clear?

 

[sojourner]

Isn’t it interesting how trinitarians won’t reply to any of the 10 clear challenges that this discussion is supposed to be about?

How about this one, then?

CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE (J)

-------- Explain how Jesus (and his disciples for many years after his death) were allowed to teach in the Temple and synagogues. If any Jews truly thought Jesus and his followers claimed that he was God, they would have been ejected (probably killed) at these times.

They were ejected. And they demanded that Jesus be killed. This is a non-argument.