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Cicero about Freedom: Brexit and the European Union

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Cicero said 2000 years ago:
Libertas non in eo est ut domino utamur justo, sed ut nullo.

Freedom is not when you have a fair master, but when you have no master.

This is what Frau Merkel and Monsieur Macron are trying to tell Boris Johnson. That the EU is a fair, rightful master.
But I hope Britain understands Cicero's words.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Cicero said 2000 years ago:
Libertas non in eo est ut domino utamur justo, sed ut nullo.

Freedom is not when you have a fair master, but when you have no master.

This is what Frau Merkel and Monsieur Macron are trying to tell Boris Johnson. That the EU is a fair, rightful master.
But I hope Britain understands Cicero's words.

Considerable difference between a master and a partner and the UK has been more than an equal partner
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Cicero said 2000 years ago:
Libertas non in eo est ut domino utamur justo, sed ut nullo.

Freedom is not when you have a fair master, but when you have no master.

This is what Frau Merkel and Monsieur Macron are trying to tell Boris Johnson. That the EU is a fair, rightful master.
But I hope Britain understands Cicero's words.

And kick out B. Johnson, the queen and all parliament?

And I do not understand the point. They have the freedom to leave. Anytime. They can leave tomorrow, if they wanted. Masters do not let you leave when you want, usually.

So, why waiting?

Ciao

- viole
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Cicero said 2000 years ago:
Libertas non in eo est ut domino utamur justo, sed ut nullo.

Freedom is not when you have a fair master, but when you have no master.

This is what Frau Merkel and Monsieur Macron are trying to tell Boris Johnson. That the EU is a fair, rightful master.
But I hope Britain understands Cicero's words.

Then I would think that it's rare for anyone to truly be free. Most choose to serve someone or something which is in effect their master.
 

onevoice

Member
The EU has broken its own rule, it stated that rather than impose uniformity it would seek to accommodate itself to particular countries needs. Unlimited immigration is environmentally unsustainable to a country like Britain with a population density twice that of the average of the EU as a whole. The EU should have been receptive to Britain's particular needs and accommodated them
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Just like the current master in DC is insensitive to California's particular needs and refuses to accommodate them. Hmmm.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Then I would think that it's rare for anyone to truly be free. Most choose to serve someone or something which is in effect their master.
Ultimately, without some degree of leadership that is organized and cooperative is needed to reduce violence. Too many nations working for themselves has been far too problematic. With "no master," extremist dogma can go unopposed with the doors wide open, and there is nothing to stand in the way of mob rule. If everyone were truly free, had no master, and did their own thing, and if we are self contained bubbles making our own way, the results would be disastrous and nothing would get down. Why should we work when someone else will?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
The EU has broken its own rule, it stated that rather than impose uniformity it would seek to accommodate itself to particular countries needs. Unlimited immigration is environmentally unsustainable to a country like Britain with a population density twice that of the average of the EU as a whole. The EU should have been receptive to Britain's particular needs and accommodated them
What do you mean by "environmentally unsustainable"?

And how would you work out the limit of environmental sustainability?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Cicero said 2000 years ago:
Libertas non in eo est ut domino utamur justo, sed ut nullo.

Freedom is not when you have a fair master, but when you have no master.

This is what Frau Merkel and Monsieur Macron are trying to tell Boris Johnson. That the EU is a fair, rightful master.
But I hope Britain understands Cicero's words.
In what sense has the EU been the "master" of the UK?

Surely the EU is a club with rules of membership, which members accept voluntarily in exchange for the benefits of membership, is it not?

If you join a tennis club, do you consider the tennis club to be your master?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The EU has broken its own rule, it stated that rather than impose uniformity it would seek to accommodate itself to particular countries needs. Unlimited immigration is environmentally unsustainable to a country like Britain with a population density twice that of the average of the EU as a whole. The EU should have been receptive to Britain's particular needs and accommodated them

First off, the UK government is responsible for immigration and can (and did) set caps. It just didn't adhere to them.

Next, britain cannot function without immigrant labour. The NHS is already in meltdown because its immigrant workers are moving to the EU mainland.

Food shortages are predicted because immigrant farm workers are going the way of the NHS workers. Supermarkets are stockpiling foid supplies in an attempt to ease the situation after brexit.

Environmentally unstable, bull.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Indeed....nobody rules me but the law.
But the EU demands to be the law. A group of unelected bureaucrats maneuvered by Rothschild, Soros...

I thought the EU was just the latest rendition of what existed before as the European Economic Community, or the European Common Market. Prior to that, they had the European Coal and Steel Community. It seems they've been maneuvering in that direction since WW2.

Past history shows that, without some basis for cooperation and mutual benefit, European countries tend to squabble and fight with each other.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I thought the EU was just the latest rendition of what existed before as the European Economic Community, or the European Common Market. Prior to that, they had the European Coal and Steel Community. It seems they've been maneuvering in that direction since WW2.

Past history shows that, without some basis for cooperation and mutual benefit, European countries tend to squabble and fight with each other.
Speaking of my country, we have never bothered anyone. In 1936 after a Banking Law, the British abandoned us, so we were forced to choose Germany instead and we followed her.

It seems it is Banking Dynasties that make the wars not the Peoples. They make them when someone try to fight them rightfully.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If we have to be honest, the EU exists because Germany has always had the vocation to rule Europe since the times of the Holy Roman Empire.

But the HRE did not include Britain...so at least, if we have to recreate some medieval dream, let us assure a fair balance of powers.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
I thought the EU was just the latest rendition of what existed before as the European Economic Community, or the European Common Market. Prior to that, they had the European Coal and Steel Community. It seems they've been maneuvering in that direction since WW2.

Past history shows that, without some basis for cooperation and mutual benefit, European countries tend to squabble and fight with each other.
No, no, it's all about The Jews, you see. :rolleyes:
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Speaking of my country, we have never bothered anyone. In 1936 after a Banking Law, the British abandoned us, so we were forced to choose Germany instead and we followed her.

It seems it is Banking Dynasties that make the wars not the Peoples. They make them when someone try to fight them rightfully.

That's part of the reason why some people want to rein in the banks and put them under state control.

I'm not sure how banking dynasties actually make the wars, though. Not that I'm actually doubting this, but from all indications, a lot of their strategies to hold power seem to backfire.

At some point, they encouraged and stoked the fires of nationalism, until it went too far, at which point they abandoned nationalism and colonialism in favor of the globalist system we have now.

So then, instead of nationalism, they wanted to unify the world, which meant supporting the EU, the UN, and the present world system where the US and its allies are a kind of international policing service which is friendly to banking and other capitalist interests.

After WW2, they were touting a new age, a new birth of freedom, with an emphasis on peace, world unity, human rights, equality, and justice for all. It was no longer nationalistic; it was internationalistic, focusing on cooperation and common goals.

Because the Powers That Be had proclaimed so loudly their support of this new order of peace, human rights, and cooperation, they knew such ideals were incompatible with their system of colonialism around the world, along with racism and ethnocentrism in the US and elsewhere. So, those systems had to come to an end, but bankers (being the bottom feeders that they are) still had to come up with ways to salvage what profits they could within that crumbling system.

The funny thing about the ways and means the elite use to control the masses is that, even when it works according to plan, something eventually always backfires. For centuries, they used religion and the Church to control the masses, but their eventual undoing was due to the fact that most people actually, truly believed the principles of the religion which had been imposed upon them and expected the Powers That Be to practice what they preached. When it was obvious that the elite weren't doing that, they turned on them, and the ability of the Church to control the masses was diminished.

It was the same thing with nationalism, as they were dealing with genuine "true believers" in the ideals of nationalism and national liberation.

Now, they've been pushing notions of freedom, equality, justice, human rights, etc. - but now they seem beside themselves and genuinely upset because people are actually holding them to those ideals and expecting them to uphold their stated principles.

It seems that over the course of history, the elite have had to come up with new and different varieties of "opiates for the masses." They do this to control people, but the trouble with using opiates is that eventually people will get out of control - precisely because they believe what they've been fed for generations.

Bankers, capitalists, and other merchant types seem to come from a more practical side of things, where the only thing they really believe in is money and higher profits. They almost seem incredulous and shocked that there are actually people out there who are "true believers" in whatever ideals have been floating around these days.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Cicero said 2000 years ago:
Libertas non in eo est ut domino utamur justo, sed ut nullo.

Freedom is not when you have a fair master, but when you have no master.

This is what Frau Merkel and Monsieur Macron are trying to tell Boris Johnson. That the EU is a fair, rightful master.
But I hope Britain understands Cicero's words.
In all honesty: do you even believe your own narrative?

I sure have a hard time trying to assume that you do.
 
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