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Christians: the doctrines of Mary

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
LOL yes thats nice.

Though Until could allude to many other things. Just like in the bible in other places. Funny how its good when it suits your personal interpretation.


BUT, I much rather have you bring so evidence to thouse accusations I called you out on, on the last page.

Based on the little I know about translation discrepancies and original Greek usage I'd say the clearer of the two passages is the one about JC's sisters and bros. To me it seems infathomable, given the context, that they could possibly be speaking about his "spiritual" family. Nevertheless, As I said before I view the doctrine of her perpetual virginity on the level of the doctrine of the moon being made of green cheese. It's just not important. I always had the big issue about Mary being sinless but as your wise Catholic apologist says: it's not necessarily putting her on the level of God as Adam and Eve and the angels were all made sinless.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Id still like an answer to thous accusations you made.

Either proof or admit your wrong

Which accusations? That Catholics worship Mary? Mind you I never thought that Catholic doctrine explicitly said she's divine or worthy of trust. It's never that simple. I thought it was more of an implication based on some of the Mariology I was familiar with. Certainly the Pope as well as most every part of the Catholic church would deny that and I believe with all my heart that it would be a SINCERE DENIAL. Nevertheless, I've entertained the thought that in their very sincere attempt to please God and faithfully interpret the texts they consider authoritative that they've elevated her above the status of a mere human being. One that is even worthy of a level of trust that she'll be there to deliver us from times of trouble. Remember, she's called the "queen of Heaven" by Catholics. A thoroughly unbiblical title for her, I'd argue.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
1st Corinthians 7: 32-34

the God assigned roles of husband and wife are every much as pious as an unmarried person who focus's only on the Lord. The scriptures speak very highly of marriage... even Mary was a married woman ;)
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Based on the little I know about translation discrepancies and original Greek usage I'd say the clearer of the two passages is the one about JC's sisters and bros. To me it seems infathomable, given the context, that they could possibly be speaking about his "spiritual" family. Nevertheless, As I said before I view the doctrine of her perpetual virginity on the level of the doctrine of the moon being made of green cheese. It's just not important. I always had the big issue about Mary being sinless but as your wise Catholic apologist says: it's not necessarily putting her on the level of God as Adam and Eve and the angels were all made sinless.

Jews said "brother" and "sister" to any other jew. This is so reeal that there is a book in the bible (I think the name is Tobias, Tobit... the thing is angel Raphael appears in there) where a jew father tell his son not to look for wives among strangers but to look for one of his sisters! the context is incredibly clear if you read that book as how they mean it in a way that is not of blood but of belief. The word "sister" is also repeated a lot though.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Id still like an answer to thous accusations you made.

Either proof or admit your wrong


Matthew 13:54 And after coming into his home territory he began to teach them in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said: “Where did this man get this wisdom and these powerful works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us?

Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, look! his mother and brothers took up a position outside seeking to speak to him.

John 2:12 After this he and his mother and brothers and his disciples went down to Ca‧per′na‧um, but they did not stay there many days.

Acts 1:14 With one accord all these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

1 Corinthians 9:5 We have authority to lead about a sister as a wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Ce′phas, do we not?

Galatians 1:19 But I saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.


The problem is that the writings that speak about Mary's 'perpetual virginity' are not from the apostles...they are from the writings of other non inspired christians. The inspired NT canon is the one that lays the foundation for christianity because these books are the ones written during the Apostles lifetimes and therefore they are the teachings were approved by the apostles.

why do you think the earliest church council's already knew which books would form the canon? Its because they knew which books came with apostolic authority.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
The problem is that the writings that speak about Mary's 'perpetual virginity' are not from the apostles...they are from the writings of other non inspired christians. The inspired NT canon is the one that lays the foundation for christianity because these books are the ones written during the Apostles lifetimes and therefore they are the teachings were approved by the apostles.

why do you think the earliest church council's already knew which books would form the canon? Its because they knew which books came with apostolic authority.

Brother did not mean the same as it means now in english. Already explained.

:facepalm:And the qoutes I gave were from Apostolic fathers, who were disciples of the Apostles. They never wrote gospels, they wrote teachings and defended Christianity against heresies.
 

kepha31

Active Member
Matthew 13:54 And after coming into his home territory he began to teach them in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said: “Where did this man get this wisdom and these powerful works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us?

Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."
Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, look! his mother and brothers took up a position outside seeking to speak to him.
Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.
John 2:12 After this he and his mother and brothers and his disciples went down to Ca‧per′na‧um, but they did not stay there many days.
John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

Acts 1:14 With one accord all these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.
Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. According to your method of interpretation, Mary would have to be continually pregnant for 90 years to bear 120 "brothers" of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 9:5 We have authority to lead about a sister as a wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Ce′phas, do we not?
Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.
Galatians 1:19 But I saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.
Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.
Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of "Alpheus." This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.
 

kepha31

Active Member
The problem is that the writings that speak about Mary's 'perpetual virginity' are not from the apostles...they are from the writings of other non inspired christians.
No, Mary's perpetual virginity was always believed by Christians from the beginning. It was upheld by virtually every reformer. The question is, "When did this pop theology make its way on the Christian landscape??? Since the authoritive Duh Vinci Con by Dan Brown?

The inspired NT canon is the one that lays the foundation for christianity because these books are the ones written during the Apostles lifetimes and therefore they are the teachings were approved by the apostles.
Apostolic Teaching was never confined to the written word alone.
why do you think the earliest church council's already knew which books would form the canon? Its because they knew which books came with apostolic authority.
Yup. That's one reason. But do you accept anything else that came out of those councils?
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.


Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. According to your method of interpretation, Mary would have to be continually pregnant for 90 years to bear 120 "brothers" of Jesus.


Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.
Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of "Alpheus." This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.


About the verses where 'brother/sister' is stated, The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "the Greek words used to designate the relationship between Jesus and these relatives have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense.”

and there have been catholic scholars who have agreed with the above:

a 1976 commentary by German Roman Catholic scholar Rudolph Pesch stated blunt his opinion that these relatives were indeed natural brothers

and a French Catholic author, Jean Gilles, wrote:
“Briefly and in measured language, out of faithfulness to the [Catholic] Church, I believe I can sum up my investigation as follows. . . . The FOUR CANONICAL Gospels provide concordant evidence that Jesus had real brothers and sisters in his family. . . . In the face of this coherent block of proof, the traditional position [of the Roman Catholic Church] seems vulnerable and fragile.”


Some very early christians also spoke against venerating Mary. The fourth century, Catholic “saint” Epiphanius condemned the offering of cakes to Mary, stating: “Let no one adore Mary.”

Seems even catholics are divided over the issue.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Mary is the New Testament Ark of the Covenant. Here are the correlations:

THE VIRGIN MARY AS THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT
"Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of God dwells. She is 'the dwelling of God [...] with men.'" CCC#2676
God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then indwelled the Ark. The Ark became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Exodus 40:34-35]
God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and the indwelled Mary. At that time Mary's womb became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Luke 1:35].
The Ark contained the 10 Commandments [the words of God in stone], a pot of manna, and Aaron's rod that came back to life [Deuteronomy 10:3-5; Hebrews 9:4].
The womb of the Virgin contained Jesus: the living Word of God enfleshed, the living bread from heaven, "the Branch" (Messianic title) who would die but come back to life [Luke 1:35].
The Ark traveled to the hill country of Judah to rest in the house of Obed-edom [2 Samuel 6:1-11]
Mary traveled to the hill country of Judah (Judea) to the home of Elizabeth [Luke 1:39]
Dressed in a priestly ephod, King David approached the Ark and danced and leapt for joy [2 Samuel 6:14]
John the Baptist, son of a priest who would himself become a priest, leapt for joy in Elizabeth's womb at the approach of Mary [Luke 1:43]
David shouted for joy in the presence of God and the holy Ark [2 Samuel 6:15]
Elizabeth exclaimed with a loud cry of joy in the presence God within Mary [Luke 1:42]
David asked, "How is it that the Ark of the Lord comes to me?" [2 Samuel 6:9]
Elizabeth asks, "Why is this granted unto me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" [Luke 1:43]
The Ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for 3 months [2 Samuel 6:11]
Mary remained in the house of her cousin Elizabeth for 3 months [Luke 1:56].
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the Ark [2 Samuel 6:11]
The word "blessed" is used 3 times in Luke 1:39-45 concerning Mary at Elizabeth's house.
The Ark returned to its sanctuary and eventually ends up in Jerusalem where the presence and glory of God is revealed in the newly built Temple [2 Samuel 6:12; 1 Kings 8:9-11]
Mary returned home from visiting Elizabeth and eventually comes to Jerusalem, where she presents God the Son in the Temple [Luke 1:56; 2:21-22]
God made Aaron's rod (which would be kept in the Ark) return to life and budded to prove he was the legitimate High Priest [Numbers 17:8].
God would resurrect His Son, who had become enfleshed in Mary's womb and born to bring salvation to all mankind, to prove He is the eternal High Priest [Hebrews 4:14].
When the Ark was outside the Holy of Holies [when it was being transported] it was to be covered with a blue veil [Numbers 4:4-6]
In Mary's appearances outside of heaven visionaries testify that she wears a blue veil.
In Revelation 11:19 John sees the Ark of the Covenant in heaven [this is the last verse of chapter 11]
In Revelation 12:1 John sees Mary in heaven. It is the same vision Juan Diego saw of Mary in 1531'the Woman clothed with the sun and standing on the moon.

THE VIRGIN MARY AS THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT

Men were forbidden to touch the Ark of the Covenant. If they touched it, they would defile it. Now - it's just a box, right? Is there something wrong with touching boxes? Of course not. But this particular box contained the Word of God written by His hand. This box was different.

See the correlation? Mary contained the Word as well.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
Some very early christians also spoke against venerating Mary. The fourth century, Catholic “saint” Epiphanius condemned the offering of cakes to Mary, stating: “Let no one adore Mary.”

Seems even catholics are divided over the issue.

He was speaking out against offering Mary things as if she is God, i which such action is condemned by the Church.

Do you know the difference between adore and venerate?
 

kepha31

Active Member
About the verses where 'brother/sister' is stated, The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "the Greek words used to designate the relationship between Jesus and these relatives have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense.”

Please quote your source. The New Catholic Encyclopedia does not teach this. There may be a quote from some heretic, but it is dishonest to misrepresent Catholic teaching with false or misleading quotes out of context.
and there have been catholic scholars who have agreed with the above:
And there have always been Catholic "scholars" who dissent from Catholic teaching. So what. It just proves theologians are free to think for themselves, contrary to the rantings of anti-Catholic bigots.
a 1976 commentary by German Roman Catholic scholar Rudolph Pesch stated blunt his opinion that these relatives were indeed natural brothers
German Roman Catholic scholar Rudolph Pesch is a known dissenter who supports womens ordination, ordination of homosexuals, and the laymens vote for bishops. In fact, there are 144 "scholars" in Germany who are in revolt against the Church.
144 German speaking Catholic theologians betray the Church through defiant dissent « Protect the Pope
and a French Catholic author, Jean Gilles, wrote:
“Briefly and in measured language, out of faithfulness to the [Catholic] Church, I believe I can sum up my investigation as follows. . . . The FOUR CANONICAL Gospels provide concordant evidence that Jesus had real brothers and sisters in his family. . . . In the face of this coherent block of proof, the traditional position [of the Roman Catholic Church] seems vulnerable and fragile.”

Please quote your source so I know you are not just making it up. Jean Gilles is an author, if he exists, and is not a theologian and is not ordained to teach. He is not shaking the pillar and foundation of truth with his opinions. None of his books are on line, and the name is not in any Google search.
Some very early christians also spoke against venerating Mary. The fourth century, Catholic “saint” Epiphanius condemned the offering of cakes to Mary, stating: “Let no one adore Mary.”

Seems even catholics are divided over the issue.
Catholics agree with the Catholic Church that condemned such false Marian devotion. There were no Protestants in Epiphanius' day. It was the Catholic Church that made the condemnation. To say that Catholics are divided over the issue because of a few 4rth century misguided fools is simply false, as well as dishonest. I'll send you a check for $10,000 if you can find one official Catholic directive over a 2000 year period telling people to worship Mary. Please read this before you make a fool of yourself:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
The one thing that these debate forums should prove is that there's a "scholar" in every camp that has a made an argument for every side of any debate in existence.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
The one thing that these debate forums should prove is that there's a "scholar" in every camp that has a made an argument for every side of any debate in existence.

You and pegg have not made much of a scholar-like attempt in your degrading and demonizing of Catholicism in saying we worship Mary.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
a 1976 commentary by German Roman Catholic scholar Rudolph Pesch stated blunt his opinion that these relatives were indeed natural brothers

.

If this statement is true, then cool, i guess.

I find it more profound that the protestant reformers loved Mary, and believed in her tittle as Mother of God and her being a ever virgin.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Does the symbol of Mary being "ever virgin" have anything to do with Jesus' biological siblings?
 

kepha31

Active Member
Does the symbol of Mary being "ever virgin" have anything to do with Jesus' biological siblings?
Sojourner, I don't understand your question. Mary as "Ever Virgin" is a title, not a symbol, and it has been repeated several times that the Hebrew and Aramaic has no word for "cousin", so they use brother. Dozens of scripture references have been given that proves "brothers" does not always mean biological brothers. Since even the reformers upheld Mary's perpetual virginity, it stands to reason that Mary having other children is a man made theory that did not become popular until recently.
 
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JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
If everytime the word "brother" and "sister" was ment as biological brother and sister, then that would make a lot of characters in the bible some really creepy people.
 
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