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Christians: the doctrines of Mary

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by -Peacemaker-, Aug 28, 2011.

  1. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    Hey guys. I'm back after getting in a little trouble with the Mods. I apologize for being a little too obnoxious with my tone. I didn't realize it would be such an issue. Let's try doing this again.

    Some of the doctrines on Mary that Protestants fear border on idolatry are her alleged sinlessness as well as her being a perpetual virgin. The real question is do we as Christians sometimes elevate her beyond a mere human servant of JC? Is this especially the case given the fact there is strong scriptural support for refuting both the doctrines mentioned?
     
    #1 -Peacemaker-, Aug 28, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
  2. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    Mary as "Theotokos" and other names are ancient and a part of Christianity. I do not think Mariology is bad. But I also do not believe in Sola scriptura, since that would mean the centuries before a common bible, there was no Christianity.

    I think Protestants who fear it borders idolatry are confused about what exactly believed and thought of this Ever Virgin, Blessed Mother.
     
  3. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    I was raised a catholic and I must tell you she was always refered to as the "slave of God" and the great servant. She has always been looked at as a great moral role model, and somebody that can be just besides you and understand you if things go bad or are hard.

    Personally I was never taught that she was greater neither than christ nor God, and she was always depicted as reminding us how to pray and show devotion love and good catholic virtues.

    I felt confort in her more than once :) It´s nice to have more than one symbol to come to for comfort. Is like, even when you technically only need Jesus, we as humans still have more people in hour life, while Jesus was not regarded in any way as less important Mary was like a second mother figure and is good to know you have more than one guy(and even a caring mother) rooting for you up there, knowing that trying to remain pure ain´t as easy as it sounds and smiling at you for trying.

    I can just talk for the way I was tught and the symbolism it have me, it was a nice support.
     
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  4. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    do you think Mary remained a virgin all her life?
     
  5. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    Yes I do.

    And before you quote scripture, all I have to say, is words have more then one meaning. Such as when it says St. Joseph did not know her until...

    Or the brothers quote.

    Brother and until do not mean only one thing which is common in english, and the greek shows that. So I come to my conclusion of the purity of the interpretation of the church because of the teachings of Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers.
     
  6. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    My biggest question would be what is the point of Mary, a married woman, remaining a virgin all her life? There are no doctrines pivotal to Christianity/salvation that hinge upon it.
     
  7. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    There is not. But she played a part in the story of salvation. She has historically been linked to a New Eve as Jesus in his humanity is the New Adam. As well as Mary being the New Ark of the Covenant. These are related to biblical typology.

    Id also like to point out, that she did carry Jesus in her womb. With such a holy event, why would St. Joseph want to still have carnal relations with her? The Holy Spirit conceived in her womb, the Word incarnate. This makes her not a normal women, and not a women who's womb is tainted.
     
  8. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    So you base this belief off the claims of apostolic fathers. Do you realise that the idea did not get any mention among the 2nd century apostolic fathers?... these are really the only ones who have any claim to personally knowing or being taught by the apostles and they dont mention it. It is quite a late doctrine for the church...certainly not one that we find in scripture as you have already stated... how do you know its accurate?
     
    #8 Pegg, Aug 29, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2011
  9. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    I am not asking this for the purpose of debating it, I'd just like to know how Mary making a sin offering to the temple fits into the picture


    lukes gospel reports that in accord with the requirement of the Mosaic Law, 40 days after Jesus’ birth, Mary offered at the temple in Jerusalem a sin offering for purification from uncleanness. Luke 2:22-24 Also, when the days for purifying them according to the law of Moses came to the full, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to Jehovah, 23 just as it is written in Jehovah’s law: “Every male opening a womb must be called holy to Jehovah,” 24 and to offer sacrifice according to what is said in the law of Jehovah: “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.


    would this sin offering not indicate that Mary had inherited the same sinful condition passed onto all mankind through Adam?
     
  10. Kathryn

    Kathryn Most Spoiled Woman Ever

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    I think that passage simply means that she was following the Jewish traditions and rituals related to giving birth. I don't think it proves or disproves anything.
     
  11. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    Its recorded in the Protoevengelium of James which is believed to be the oral tradition of belief, and was written by Early christians. And both Catholic and Orthodox believe the tradition.

    And Mary as the New Eve, is an Apostolic belief
    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
     
  12. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    What sin offering? This not a sin offering.

    Lev. 12
    Anytime a Women had her period, she would have to be purified.

    Lev 15
     
  13. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    And whatever the Law prescribed Mary had to follow to be obedient to the Lord and be the New Eve.
     
  14. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the scripture you quoted says:

    "This is the law for her that beareth a man child or a maid child. [8] And if her hand find not sufficiency, and she is not able to offer a lamb, she shall take two turtles, or two young pigeons, one for a holocaust, and another for sin: and the priest shall pray for her, and so she shall be cleansed.



    Mary offered 'two' pigeons. One for a holocaust, and the other for 'sin'

    If she was without sin, she would not have needed to offer two pigeons...perhaps only one for the holocaust... but surely not the 'other for sin'
     
  15. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    If women had to pay for the sin, why would it not prescribe a sin offering at first?
     
  16. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    im not sure what you mean.
     
  17. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    Im sorry I read something wrong.


    But I do not think it was for sin, as in doing wrong, but for purification. As you can see in the verse i showed you, the menstruation was impure and a women needed to be cleansed.

    Id also like to point out that, for Mary to be the New Eve, she had to be obedient to the law. In which the law prescribed her to give up a sin offering as well as a holocaust offering. AS Bede said;
    Thomas Aquinas: Catena Aurea, Luke
     
  18. Firstborner

    Firstborner Active Member

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    Not only do the earliest Church Fathers not mention anything about the perpetual virginity doctrine, they explicitly speak of Jude and James being the Lord's brothers by the blood. Since the only blood shared would have been Mary, she could not have remained a virgin. That fact alone kills the theory that the term "brothers" was indicative of a further relationship.

    The argument based on HeOs Hou (until) in Matthew 1:25 is extremely weak, especially since if it did not mean he had relations with her afterwards, it would have been a perfect chance for Matthew to declare, "and he never had relations with her." Especially this would have been written in this case if it was such an important doctrine to be held.

    The debate about Mathew 1:25 is really
     
  19. JacobEzra.

    JacobEzra. Dr. Greenthumb

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    When did it say explicitly that they were his blood brothers in the modern sense? And the word brothers could have ment cousins, or fellow Jews. Would not be the first time the word "brother" would have been used like that in the bible.

    Also, I would say, the Early Church Fathers did in fact deny what you claim they said.
    Catena Aurea - Gospel of Matthew | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    Gospel authors could have also declared alot of other things to. And?

    What Early Church Fathers said...

     
  20. Many Sages One Truth

    Many Sages One Truth Active Member

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    Which Protestants fear it borders on idolotry? What about venerating Mary is idolotry? We have no problem venerating Jesus who also partly man.
     
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