-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
It's still terribly misleading considering myself nor any other man or woman in the history of Christianity has been called the KIng or Queen of Heaven except JC and Mary.
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Christians: the doctrines of Mary
- Thread starter -Peacemaker-
- Start date
It's still terribly misleading considering myself nor any other man or woman in the history of Christianity has been called the KIng or Queen of Heaven except JC and Mary.
kepha31
Active Member
All the Old Testament kings had queens. They were never the wife of the king but the mother. Jesus is a King. Jesus has a mother. His mother is a Queen.
John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.
Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.
John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.
John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.
Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.
1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.
1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.
1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.
1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.
2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.
Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.
Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
The great pre-eminence of the kings mother may seem odd from our modern Western perspective, in which we think of a queen as being the wife of a king. However, recall that most ancient Near-Eastern kings practiced polygamy. King Solomon had seven hundred wives (1 Kgs. 11:3)imagine the chaos in the royal court if all seven hundred were awarded the queenship! But since each king had only one mother, one can see the practical wisdom in bestowing the queenship upon her.
more at Is Mary's Queenship Biblical? (This Rock: December 1998)
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
Kelpha: I think Catholics take a very liberal translation of the verses you quoted but I could at least say that while I don't agree with the Catholic interpretation I also think it's pretty harmless if you want to believe it. That is until you start talking about Mary being at the right hand of God. Yes I know you technically said Son of God but it's still treading in potentially dangerous waters. I don't see why there's a relationship between OT kings and their mom's and JC and his mom either. It would've been nice at least if one of the writers of the actual canon had touched on this possible relationship if it was really an integral part of the Christian walk. At the end of the day I only hope that Christians who want people who are hopefully in Heaven to intercede for them pray at least 70-80% of their prayers straight to God and teach others to do the same since that's how JC said to pray. It's just wise to cover one's bases
kepha31
Active Member
Can you pin point which verses in this video are interpreted as liberal?
[youtube]0aU18v-tl8I[/youtube]
THE BEST MARY VIDEO EVERY MADE - YouTube
[youtube]0aU18v-tl8I[/youtube]
THE BEST MARY VIDEO EVERY MADE - YouTube
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
no, i provided a reference to the article which mentioned the meaning of the word for brother in greek.
because this is not a DIR thread, its a DEBATE thread.
but its ok, I can completely understand you not wanting to
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
There was such an uproar about the usage of the greek word for "brother" that I have to wonder why no one responded to my post discussing a word study of passages where the very same Greek word is used for non-blood brothers in the New Testament.
If you do look up every passage where that word is used, MOST of them are not discussing blood brothers. How do I know this? Because I've done the study. Just use your handy Strong's Concordance and do it yourself and you'll see that most of the time, that word doesn't denote even a true kinship relationship. Why Protestants insist on forcing that narrow translation on Jesus' kin or friends in one or two verses is beyond me. Well, actually it's not beyond me - I believe it is a blatant attempt to undermine Marian doctrines.
And I'm not even Catholic!
If you do look up every passage where that word is used, MOST of them are not discussing blood brothers. How do I know this? Because I've done the study. Just use your handy Strong's Concordance and do it yourself and you'll see that most of the time, that word doesn't denote even a true kinship relationship. Why Protestants insist on forcing that narrow translation on Jesus' kin or friends in one or two verses is beyond me. Well, actually it's not beyond me - I believe it is a blatant attempt to undermine Marian doctrines.
And I'm not even Catholic!
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
I'm going to try to watch it but here's what I mean. Catholics take one passage like "this is my body" in reference to the Eucharist or "this is your mother" in reference to Mary and they create huge intricate theologies around them, making huge jumps in logic to do so, and arguably read way deeper into it than was intended.
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Junglej25, --It is Gods work that we find in the Bible about Mary, not any Catholic that as you wrote ; " create huge intricate theologies around them ". About Mary, God gave Mary a special role . He saved her from all sin {Luke 1 v 28, 47 ], made her uniquely blessed among all women [ Luke 1v 42, and made her a model for all Christians [ Luke 1v 48 ], also as Elisha and Eliza were taken up ,so wasn't Mary [ body and soul, into heaven-- an image of our own resurrection at the end of the world [ Rev. 12: 1-2 ] If Jesus is our Spiritual Brother, as which He surely is , then Mary being the mother of our Spiritual Brother then becomes our spiritual mother.
On the other passage that you wrote about : " this is my body "--
Once we become members of Christ's family , He does not let us go hungry, but feeds us with His own body and blood through the Eucharist.
In the OT , as they prepared for their journey into the wilderness, God commanded His people to sacrifice a lamb and sprinkle its blood on their doorposts, so the Angel of Death would pass by their homes. Then they ate the lamb to seal their covenant with God.
This lamb prefigures Jesus. He is the real " Lamb of God , " who takes away the sins of the world { John 1 v 29 ] . Through Jesus we enter into a New Covenant with God { Luke 22: 20 ] , who protects us from eternal death. God's OT people ate the Passover lamb.
Now we must eat the Lamb that is the Eucharist. Jesus said , " Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you " { John 6: 53 ] .
At the Last Supper He took bread and wine and said , " Take and eat. This is my body.... This is my blood which will be shed for you " [ Mark 14: 22-24 ]
On the other passage that you wrote about : " this is my body "--
Once we become members of Christ's family , He does not let us go hungry, but feeds us with His own body and blood through the Eucharist.
In the OT , as they prepared for their journey into the wilderness, God commanded His people to sacrifice a lamb and sprinkle its blood on their doorposts, so the Angel of Death would pass by their homes. Then they ate the lamb to seal their covenant with God.
This lamb prefigures Jesus. He is the real " Lamb of God , " who takes away the sins of the world { John 1 v 29 ] . Through Jesus we enter into a New Covenant with God { Luke 22: 20 ] , who protects us from eternal death. God's OT people ate the Passover lamb.
Now we must eat the Lamb that is the Eucharist. Jesus said , " Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you " { John 6: 53 ] .
At the Last Supper He took bread and wine and said , " Take and eat. This is my body.... This is my blood which will be shed for you " [ Mark 14: 22-24 ]
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
This is what I mean about making huge jumps in logic and reading way too deeply into verses. Luke 1 verse 28 says
" The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” " and verse 47 says " and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."
How in Heaven's name can you read into those verses and figure out that they mean she was saved from all sin?
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-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
Regarding the "this is my body verse." You have one verse which could easily be Jesus using the bread to symbolically represent himself. It could be very much like when you show someone a photo of your mother and say "this is my mother." It doesn't mean you're related to a picture or that a picture gave birth to you. Catholics however take that one verse and create a whole theology around it in which a ceremony is included into the mass where the priest "transforms" the bread into literally the flesh of JC. This literal flesh is supposed to contain all these special graces which is available to those who eat it. The interesting thing is that JC said exactly what the eating of the bread really means in the next verses. It's to be done IN REMEBERANCE of him. That's all it is, something to help us remember what God did for us through JC. Just like the passover was instituted to remind Jews of what God did for them at Egypt. I think Catholics are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
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JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Gratia Plena does not mean "favored" means full of grace.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Except that the Greek term used is anamnesis, which means much more than "recalling to mind" or "committing to memory." It means "to pull into the present."
In other words, when the meal is shared, it is shared ONCE in all times and in all places, by all Christians. And when the meal is shared, we also share in the newness of life effected by Christ's resurrection.
I think you're downplaying it to the point of impotence.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
it has to do with the context of the verse in question.
it doesnt matter if the same word is used elsewhere under a different context because the context itself shows the meaning
In the case of the verse in question... Matthew 13:54 And after coming into his home territory he began to teach them in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said: Where did this man get this wisdom and these powerful works? 55 Is this not the carpenters son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? The context is clearly speaking about blood brothers. And that quote from the New Catholic Encyclopedia about the word used, a‧del‧phos′, admits that in such a context, it does mean a blood brother.
The greek word for cousin is a‧ne‧psi‧os′
If these 'brothers' were cousins, the word for cousin could have been used...but instead the word for brother is used.
kepha31
Active Member
Pegg,
Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.
Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.
Sorry Pegg, but you are only half right.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-V
Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.
Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.
Sorry Pegg, but you are only half right.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-V
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kepha31
Active Member
Then there is the other half of the verse that gets ignored. The angel did not say, "POOF! The Lord is now with you!" The angel did not say, "the Lord will be with you". The angel said THE LORD *IS* WITH YOU. And even if you go with the sloppy translation "highly favored", at what point in time was the Lord with Mary? It's not spelled out in scriptures, you have to use REASON.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
Do you guys understand that this type of language isn't new in the Bible? It's found littered in the OT in too many places to count. God has said "I am with you" to just about every hero in the OT. It means God blesses the work of their hands, blesses everything they touch, gives them success at what they strive to do, blesses the fruit of their womb, and showers them with every good thing. Did you guys spend 1/100 the same amount of time studying the meaning of the very same language when used in David's life for instance or maybe Daniel's?
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Show where an Angel Hails a person instead of the other way around. As well as claim one to be full of grace.