Christians: "No one has ever seen God", but we saw Jesus...

[paradox]

I want to hear from other fellow Christians their interpretation of the John 1:18a:

No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him.

See also Exodus 33:20

But you cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.

Here is an argument:

1. No one has ever seen God
2. People (Jews) saw Jesus
   
3. Therefore Jesus is not God

The issue here is not whether Jesus is God or not because John 1:18b says "The only Son, God"

So the argument above can easily be refuted with:

1. No one has ever seen God (the Father)
2. People saw Jesus (the Son)
3. Therefore Jesus (the Son) is not the Father

We know the definition of holly trinity is that:
The Son IS NOT the Father IS NOT holly ghost, but all of which IS ONE GOD.

Therefore problem seems to be solved but...

However it's not that easy!
Consider another verse from John 14:9 where Jesus himself says this:

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

This is a clear contradiction with quote above Exodus 33:20

But you cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.

Suppose you're debating a non Christian and he\she presents you with this problem.
How would you as an apologist explain this contradiction?

 

[74x12]

People saw manifestations of God throughout the Bible. Abraham even ate and talked with God.

But no one has seen God in his unveiled glory because he dwells in light that no one can approach unto. (1 Timothy 6:16) It is Jesus who reveals him. Because he manifests this invisible and unseeable God. Jesus' body is referred to as the veil in Hebrews 10:20. So of course Jesus human body was hiding the glory of God.

This is no doubt why the veil was wrent in the temple when he died. It showed that the veil (his body) was dead.

Often in the Bible God appears hidden within a cloud called the Shekinah by some people. But the Shekinah cloud is not God. It's an angel (taking form of a cloud) that hides the glory of God. Otherwise anyone who sees God unveiled would die.

Moses did manage to see the back of God. But not his front. And he only saw God's back because God covered him with his hand and he was hidden in the cleft of a rock. So basically, Moses could only see God's back because of some kind of protection.

 

[TreeOfLife]

People saw manifestations of God throughout the Bible. Abraham even ate and talked with God.

But no one has seen God in his unveiled glory because he dwells in light that no one can approach unto. (1 Timothy 6:16) It is Jesus who reveals him. Because he manifests this invisible and unseeable God. Jesus' body is referred to as the veil in Hebrews 10:20. So of course Jesus human body was hiding the glory of God.

This is no doubt why the veil was wrent in the temple when he died. It showed that the veil (his body) was dead.

Often in the Bible God appears hidden within a cloud called the Shekinah by some people. But the Shekinah cloud is not God. It's an angel (taking form of a cloud) that hides the glory of God. Otherwise anyone who sees God unveiled would die.

Moses did manage to see the back of God. But not his front. And he only saw God's back because God covered him with his hand and he was hidden in the cleft of a rock. So basically, Moses could only see God's back because of some kind of protection.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Sorry I have to disagree that nobody's seen God. In acts 7 I think it's 55 and 56 Steven the 1st martyr looked up and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

How about Exodus 33.11 Moses stood face-to-face with God now we can't say that that is Jesus Christ but not God the father so I do understand understand any argument against this one.
Or Matthew 11.27 Jesus said he reveals God to us.
How about John 6.46 says there God reveals himself to us.

So which scripture do you believe.
Again you either stand on the truth that The Bible is the word of God and it is an infallible or else you lose your anchor in truth and will believe anything.

 

[74x12]

Sorry I have to disagree that nobody's seen God. In acts 7 I think it's 55 and 56 Steven the 1st martyr looked up and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

How about Exodus 33.11 Moses stood face-to-face with God now we can't say that that is Jesus Christ but not God the father so I do understand understand any argument against this one.
Or Matthew 11.27 Jesus said he reveals God to us.
How about John 6.46 says there God reveals himself to us.

So which scripture do you believe.
Again you either stand on the truth that The Bible is the word of God and it is an infallible or else you lose your anchor in truth and will believe anything.

As I pointed out many can see manifestations/revelations of God. Throughout the Bible. Ezekiel saw God on a throne. Isaiah saw God in the temple and his train filled the temple. Daniel saw the Ancient of days etc. All of these appearances of God are meant to teach us things about God. So God is really showing us not his actual unveiled form; but his personality. Basically he is telling us about himself.

Moses spoke to God face to face but it doesn't say he saw God's actual face. Only that he spoke to him face to face. But God could have been invisible or veiled. For example we know that Moses often spoke to God as he was cloaked in a pillar of fire and smoke. Otherwise it would make no sense that it was a very special thing for Moses to see God's back. (Exodus 33:25) So Moses really saw only God's actual back; but no one has really seen his face.

As for God revealing himself to us; yes but that is in the spiritual sense of the meaning. The ultimate revelation of the invisible God is of course Jesus Christ himself. Who was God manifest and tangible. Touchable. He lived among us. "Immanuel" God with us.

Yes, Jesus reveals God to us.

 

[74x12]

Jesus will return in "the glory of his Father" as he said. At this point Jesus' face will be unveiled and shining with great brightness to consume the adversaries of God.

 

[74x12]

It's called an "epiphany" when God reveals himself to us as a manifestation but not in his unveiled glory.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Jesus himself and revelation 314 calls himself the 1st creation of God so therefore he was not God from the beginning is he did it now I would say yes because of Matthew 28.18.
To say that he was God I believe would make Jesus a liar. As he stayed himself. I ascend to my father and to your father and to my God and your God you're God. For those denominations that say Jesus existed from eternity to eternity deny his very word.

 

[74x12]

Jesus himself and revelation 314 calls himself the 1st creation of God so therefore he was not God from the beginning is he did it now I would say yes because of Matthew 28.18.
To say that he was God I believe would make Jesus a liar. As he stayed himself. I ascend to my father and to your father and to my God and your God you're God. For those denominations that say Jesus existed from eternity to eternity deny his very word.

He's the beginning of creation of course. That is his human form which is created. No one denies that. Yet his Spirit is not created and is God.

Yes all power is given to him but we see that God Himself "takes his power" and reigns.

How does God the All powerful take power?

Revelation 11:17
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Only through Jesus Christ did God ever "take" power.

This is because a human being needed to take all power. Jesus took all power in human form for our sakes to save us from our enemies. So then God says to him the Son of man "sit thou at my right hand until thy enemies are made thy footstool".

So Jesus sits on the right hand of power of God ruling over all in human form until he has made all the enemies of mankind his footstool. He does this for us. It's not for himself.

We know that God is in him doing it all.

We know that Jesus was in the form of God and emptied himself and was made in the likeness of man. We know that all will profess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

So when we say Jesus is Lord it's to the glory of the Father. Therefore we know that Jesus is the name of God manifest in human form.

Philipians 2:5-11
5 For, let this mind be in you that [is] also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,
9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --
11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[metis]

• No one has ever seen God

• People (Jews) saw Jesus

• Therefore Jesus is not God

Within Catholicism, the belief is that Jesus [and the Holy Spirit] are of the "essence" of God. To put it another way, they are of God.

 

[paradox]

Sorry I have to disagree that nobody's seen God. In acts 7 I think it's 55 and 56 Steven the 1st martyr looked up and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Acts 7:55 explicitly states Steven saw "The glory of God" rather than God's face:

But he, filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God

Acts 6:15 says Steven's face was like the face of an angel.
Similar transfigurations are depicted in other parts of the bible none of which say anyone saw God, ex: transfiguration of Moses in Exodus 34:29, his face also shone, but ...

How about Exodus 33.11 Moses stood face-to-face with God now we can't say that that is Jesus Christ but not God the father so I do understand understand any argument against this one.

... Exodus 34:5 Explains Moses did not see God or his face, instead God appeared as "cloud"

The Lord came down in a cloud and stood with him there and proclaimed the name, “Lord.”

Or Matthew 11.27 Jesus said he reveals God to us.

Doesn't imply revealing Father's face.
I'm think with a bit of research we may come to conclusion that "revealing" means something else rather showing Father's face.

How about John 6.46 says there God reveals himself to us.

It says that only the one who is from God saw him, which is Jesus.

So which scripture do you believe.
Again you either stand on the truth that The Bible is the word of God and it is an infallible or else you lose your anchor in truth and will believe anything.

Thank you for sharing these verses it gave nice insights about the topic, yes The Bible is the word of God and it is infallible but surely not easy to grasp.

The magic formula that always works is to honestly ask holly spirit for help in interpretation.

 

[paradox]

Within Catholicism, the belief is that Jesus [and the Holy Spirit] are of the "essence" of God. To put it another way, they are of God.

Agree.
Or more precisely they (3 persons) are characteristics of God, hence "persons" of God:
https://www.gracenotes.info/documents/topics_doc/essence.pdf

The phrase "Essence of God" is a theological term used to refer to God's personal characteristics, or to the facets of His personality. Sometimes the term "Attributes of God" is used to refer to God's essence. The "attributes", or the "essence", of God are His primary characteristics, so they cannot be completely communicated to man. They can be described to a degree, but they cannot be fully defined.

As for God revealing himself to us; yes but that is in the spiritual sense of the meaning. The ultimate revelation of the invisible God is of course Jesus Christ himself. Who was God manifest and tangible. Touchable. He lived among us. "Immanuel" God with us.

Yes, Jesus reveals God to us.

In a lot of places in the bible God "reveals" him self in one way or another, it would be difficult and error prone to grasp out the meaning of "revealing", I'm sure it doesn't strictly apply to showing father's face.
I think "revealing father's face" could be easily refuted if the word is put as such into any of the contexts where this word is used.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Acts 7:55 explicitly states Steven saw "The glory of God" rather than God's face:


Acts 6:15 says Steven's face was like the face of an angel.
Similar transfigurations are depicted in other parts of the bible none of which say anyone saw God, ex: transfiguration of Moses in Exodus 34:29, his face also shone, but ...



... Exodus 34:5 Explains Moses did not see God or his face, instead God appeared as "cloud"



Doesn't imply revealing Father's face.
I'm think with a bit of research we may come to conclusion that "revealing" means something else rather showing Father's face.


It says that only the one who is from God saw him, which is Jesus.



Thank you for sharing these verses it gave nice insights about the topic, yes The Bible is the word of God and it is infallible but surely not easy to grasp.

The magic formula that always works is to honestly ask holly spirit for help in interpretation.

My phone has been messing up. Hope this works.
When does a father keep his face from his children??? He doesn't..
When does a puppy become a dog?
We Are the literal offspring of God the father created in his image.
From Genesis chapter 1 verse 28.. To psalms 82 verse 6. To John chapter 10 verse 31 to 36. And to Romans chapter 8 for 17.

God loves us and will keep nothing back for those that love Him.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Why do we have to add theology to the mix. The Bible is easily understood by even the poorest of the poor. And we then want to add to the words to make him in our image. I vote that God can have a son if he wants. And as heir his son can sit down beside him.
A separate being. G-ds first creation.

Also. How easy would it be for diety to raise himself from the grave.
But a creation of G-d. On the commandment of G-d. Now thats something I can believe in

 

[paradox]

psalms 82 verse 6. To John chapter 10 verse 31 to 36.

Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34

If you read whole chapter 82 or in particular verses 1-5 in Psalms 82:1-5 it is clear that this psalm is God's critique directed toward unjust and corrupt earthly judges. that is, those who are in position in Israel to judge ordinary people according to the God's law.
God declared those judges to be gods in verse 6.

In John 10:35a Jesus says that those whom God calls "gods" in psalms are those to whom the word of God was directed:

If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came

And this is not contradictory to the psalms 82 because we know to whom the word of God was directed.

From John 10:34:

Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?

Beside the fact that Jesus is referring to psalms 82, it also carries 2 contextual meanings:
1.) "Your law"
2.) "You are gods"

For point 1 "Your law" Romans 3:19-20 explains significance of the law for Jesus' followers, in this context it proves Pharises wrong according to their law.

For point 2 "You are gods" Jesus is merely "defending" his previous claim "I am the Son of God", which is obvious from the context of John 10:31-36 because Pharises are accusing him for making himself a God.

There is no redefinition of the meaning of or re-declaration of "Your are gods" in John 10:31-36, in addition, in this context Pharises are pretty much judges according to the law here, they put forward accusations against Jesus and Jesus is defending his claims according to their law.

Why do we have to add theology to the mix. The Bible is easily understood by even the poorest of the poor.

Of course we don't have to, I always prefer scriptures to grasp contradictions, but so far I see no verse or broader context from the scriptures which would refute or unravel:

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

and

But you cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.

The verses and indications which you laid down so far favor contradiction rather than unraveling it, but I'm sure for every contradiction there is scriptural explanation, be it a single verse or broader context.

 

[paradox]

Jesus himself and revelation 314 calls himself the 1st creation of God so therefore he was not God from the beginning is he did it now I would say yes because of Matthew 28.18.
To say that he was God I believe would make Jesus a liar. As he stayed himself. I ascend to my father and to your father and to my God and your God you're God. For those denominations that say Jesus existed from eternity to eternity deny his very word.

This seemingly contradiction in Revelation 3:14 is easily refuted\unraveled with Colossians 1:15-18, specifically verse 16 is clear enough in that:

all things were created by him, and for him

Which also refutes Matthew 28:18

Additionally, contradiction from revelation that Jesus was "created" rather than being a creator is also unrevealed in John 1:1-3 and John 1:14

Specifically:

1. In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God
...
14. And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us ...

Which indicates "Jesus being created" means being born in flesh or coming to earth, rather than being created as God or ghost before being born in flesh.
It clearly indicates his coming to earth which is an event far away from creation of all things.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I want to hear from other fellow Christians their interpretation of the John 1:18a:


See also Exodus 33:20


Here is an argument:

1. No one has ever seen God
2. People (Jews) saw Jesus
   
3. Therefore Jesus is not God

The issue here is not whether Jesus is God or not because John 1:18b says "The only Son, God"

So the argument above can easily be refuted with:

1. No one has ever seen God (the Father)
2. People saw Jesus (the Son)
3. Therefore Jesus (the Son) is not the Father

We know the definition of holly trinity is that:
The Son IS NOT the Father IS NOT holly ghost, but all of which IS ONE GOD.

Therefore problem seems to be solved but...

However it's not that easy!
Consider another verse from John 14:9 where Jesus himself says this:


This is a clear contradiction with quote above Exodus 33:20


Suppose you're debating a non Christian and he\she presents you with this problem.
How would you as an apologist explain this contradiction?

I think you are complicating it unnecessarily. No one can look upon God in his full glory and live so God shows us himself in human form.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think you are complicating it unnecessarily. No one can look upon God in his full glory and live so God shows us himself in human form.

Well, she does it differently with me. So we can't even agree on that.

 

[paradox]

I think you are complicating it unnecessarily. No one can look upon God in his full glory and live so God shows us himself in human form.

Your statement makes sense with Colossians 1:15

Who is the image of the invisible God

Therefore we're down to John 14:9

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Which is a paradox because we (the Jews) both, saw and didn't saw, or we saw the invisible.

Well, she does it differently with me. So we can't even agree on that.

Can you be more explicit, what is it that you don't agree on?

 

[TreeOfLife]

This seemingly contradiction in Revelation 3:14 is easily refuted\unraveled with Colossians 1:15-18, specifically verse 16 is clear enough in that:


Which also refutes Matthew 28:18

Additionally, contradiction from revelation that Jesus was "created" rather than being a creator is also unrevealed in John 1:1-3 and John 1:14

Specifically:



Which indicates "Jesus being created" means being born in flesh or coming to earth, rather than being created as God or ghost before being born in flesh.
It clearly indicates his coming to earth which is an event far away from creation of all things.