Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
It's a paradox, not a contradiction. You have seen the Father in Christ but not in his glory.
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Christians: "No one has ever seen God", but we saw Jesus...
- Thread starter paradox
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TreeOfLife
Member
Ya know. I am amazed an Christians. Mormons believe more in the Bible than protestants and catholics.
I dont see that as a contradiction.
Did G-d make his scripture so complex that you can't even believe the words on the written page!
Next you will say that there you have to Believe in the trinity for salvation. Which is again an add on by so called scholars.
So John 1.1.
1. In the beginning was the word.
Jesus was the beginning of the creation. Just as he stated in rev 3:14.
Why can't the words on the page be enough. Why believe the traditions of men
2. And the qord was with God.
Yes again. He was there and He created the heavens and the earth as stated
3. And the word was God
Again as stated in Matt 28. 18. Why can't we believe the words on the page. This time im red and white.
Question to all and maybe should be on another thread.
Are or should the words attributed to Christ (which in John 12.50) be a higher priority to believe in.
Also. Johns gospel was not complete and took many years to produce. John did have time (and I am thankful) to see and think thru all that he wrote.
Last comment.
If we can not even believe the word attributed the Jesus: i ascend to my father and to your father my God and your God.
Then Christianity is false!!!
Brothes and sisters. The gospel is made for the unlearned to understand. Please stop making it so hard that no one w/o a masters in Christian doctrine can believe.
We are the trinity John 14:20
I dont see that as a contradiction.
Did G-d make his scripture so complex that you can't even believe the words on the written page!
Next you will say that there you have to Believe in the trinity for salvation. Which is again an add on by so called scholars.
So John 1.1.
1. In the beginning was the word.
Jesus was the beginning of the creation. Just as he stated in rev 3:14.
Why can't the words on the page be enough. Why believe the traditions of men
2. And the qord was with God.
Yes again. He was there and He created the heavens and the earth as stated
3. And the word was God
Again as stated in Matt 28. 18. Why can't we believe the words on the page. This time im red and white.
Question to all and maybe should be on another thread.
Are or should the words attributed to Christ (which in John 12.50) be a higher priority to believe in.
Also. Johns gospel was not complete and took many years to produce. John did have time (and I am thankful) to see and think thru all that he wrote.
Last comment.
If we can not even believe the word attributed the Jesus: i ascend to my father and to your father my God and your God.
Then Christianity is false!!!
Brothes and sisters. The gospel is made for the unlearned to understand. Please stop making it so hard that no one w/o a masters in Christian doctrine can believe.
We are the trinity John 14:20
TreeOfLife
Member
I can believe that.
paradox
(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
The issues here is how we approach into solving contradictions:
My stance and demonstrations so far is that contradictions are to be solved with specific verses or broader contexts which directly refute or unravel some contradiction.
From what I see your approach is that specific contradiction should be taken literarily, that is word by word because the bible is unfailable word of God and should be taken as such.
Therefore if that's true, there is no way for us to come to any agreement because I think your method of bible contradiction solving is not applicable to the problem.
Me too.
TreeOfLife
Member
Colt
Well-Known Member
God is spirit, he is manifest in his subordinate sons. For now the closest we can get to seeing the Father is the divinity in the person of Jesus.
While Jesus referred to Triune deity, he didn't say that he was the second person of the Trinity. People just "assume" it.
"only begotten" means unique.
paradox
(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Believe me, I understand you more than what you think I do.
I think anyone who is into the bible or is interested into studying the bible should be worried about contradictions, although not worried literally but rather interested in.
For me contradictions are obstacles toward knowing the word of God, getting to know how to overcome these obstacles in an universal way is to poses one of the several keys required to unlock hidden meanings.
We know the bible is not scarce with contradictions and for that reason I consider having an universal key to contradictions is essential part of ones arsenal.
There is an old saying: "Trust but verify"...
I resort to theology only when I'm unable to understand myself but I also verify any such interpretation.
When I read anything about theology or how the church interprets the bible I always in addition search for verses or biblical truth, which backs up theological point of view. this way I'm sure theology is correct.
For example, I would never understand prophecy of Daniel without help of theology, thanks to theological point of view I've learned about so called "old testament eschatology", and the fact that OT eschatology is separate from but similar to NT eschatology.
Knowing how to interpret Daniel helped me to better understand the book revelation because many verses and thoughts have been borrowed from Daniel into revelation.
It answered my questions on how and why OT prophecies has all been fulfilled, and since then I find odd when people assign OT prophecies to modern day times.
OPINION OF CLARA TEA:
There are many bibles. So, there are many interpretations of John 1.
John 1:18 - Wikipedia
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." The New International Version translates the passage as: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
CLARA TEA'S UNUSUAL IDEA:
Not many will agree with me. I think that God is made of trillions of souls, and puts one soul into each person (though there are people without souls, according to some psychics). Then the souls influence the human (the human body is much like a monkey, but smarter, capable of containing a soul). That influence will send the soul to either heaven or hell. In heaven, it rejoins the collective that we know as God. So, God is not a single entity. Many religious people insist that God is one. But, if God is one, how could God be a trinity????
Jesus said that he is part of God. That didn't sit well with the Jews, who heard that same story from many pretenders who claimed to be God or the son of God, or claimed to somehow be powerful magicians or sorcerers.
But, if I'm right, we are all part of God, because almost all of us have souls and the souls are a part of God.
Some psychics who have spoken to God have said that he has a voice like many waters. That would be the voice of many souls. But notice that "almost" all of the souls say exactly the same things in exactly the same wording. It would be hard to understand God if they all said things their own way, and didn't agree totally. But if they all say (with the exact words) "thou shalt not kill," then we could understand God yet still hear a rippling (like waters) of the various voices that comprise God.
But, how is it possible that the many souls comprising God all use the same words? Well, if you were one of the souls residing in God, and you had an infinite amount of time to argue and discuss, you would eventually agree or disagree. Most of the souls that disagree have been banished. The souls that are left have been trying to talk for a long time, and unless they say the same things in the same way, with the same words, they will not be heard or understood. So, virtually all of the souls in God are in complete agreement.
But there is a problem with this. Some say that God is completely good and there is no bad at all in God. That is not true, obviously. Lucifer was the fallen angel. Lucifer was said to be perfect, and was made by God, and, if I am right, had a piece of God in him (the same kind of soul that most of us have). Yet, God banished Lucifer to hell.
So, God apparently has evil parts, but He is using human beings as a purification system, assuring us freedom of choice (choose good or bad, so choose heaven or hell).
This might explain why God is not answering prayers at the moment, and allows evil and allows cruelty, allows sickness, and allows death and pain. God is not one entity, and not entirely good, but getting better with each soul (part of God) that is banished to hell.
Was Jesus right to say that God was in Him? Yes, but if I am right, God (or a spirit of God) is in all of us.
I think that it is the spirit that gives psychics the abilities that they have. The ability to see the future, to travel to distant places with the mind (actually with the soul).
Some people are creeped out by sensing that something is behind them or beside them. Psychics see that, and note that it is their soul that is not quite attached. So, it is not seeing a ghost, they are seeing their own souls. It is like being frightened of their own shadows.
Some psychics are afraid to have their souls drift through the cosmos...afraid that the white cord that connects them to their bodies might break. Yet, that cord remains unbreakable, and they are always able to make it back to their bodies after experiencing the wonders of the cosmos.
WAS JESUS GOD?
I don't think so. I think that Jesus contained a soul, just as we do, but it was a very powerful soul. It might also be possible that Jesus contained more than one soul (which would explain the extreme amount of power and abilities).
I think that the bible makes clear, in various parts, that Jesus was the son of God, but can rightly be called Lord, anyway.
The bible also makes it very clear that God says that only He (God) is God and that there will be no other.
HOLY SPIRIT:
I think that the holly spirit was the soul of Jesus. Jesus was merely a human, like the rest of us (though his dad was God). But Jesus was a vessel for the holy spirit, which was a soul (or perhaps multiple soul).
ABRAHAM:
Abraham's talk with the spiritual world didn't go well....he was asked murder his son Isaac to secure a place for himself in heaven. This was after God made it clear "thou shalt not kill" and it was obvious that one would not be able to get into heaven with a self-serving act. It was a test, not of loyalty to God, but a test of Abraham's knowledge of God's laws ("thou shalt not kill.")
CAN'T SEE GOD IN HEAVEN:
"But no one has seen God in his unveiled glory because he dwells in light that no one can approach unto." (1 Timothy 6:16)
Psychics who tried to enter heaven and hell to see what is there have never been able to make it. It is because hell is a prison surrounded by a psychic vortex, and that is what makes the pain and sensation of fire. Heaven, on the other hand, is also surrounded by a psychic vortex, but the idea is to keep souls out, not in. The power of these vortices is so great that even the most skilled psychics are not able to penetrate.
I suppose that this psyhic vortex is called the Shekinah.
God gives free will (bad...hell....or good...heaven). If He showed Himself, there would be no free will. Everyone would have to admit that there is a God and they would have to behave.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I don't think so Clara ... first of all this was before the command "thou shalt not kill" was given. I believe the test was a test of his faith as per Hebrews 11:19 which says that Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead. Because Abraham already believed God's promise that Isaac would be the father of a great nation. Isaac's seed would be like the sand on the seashore or the stars of heaven. So since Abraham believed this; he knew that even if he sacrificed Isaac, he wouldn't stay dead. Because God doesn't lie.
Hmm ... I do believe people have gone to heaven but not on their own strength. So you could be right. Like John in the book of Revelation was taken up. So was Elijah in a chariot of fire. There was no one (other than Jesus) who ascended up by their own power. Even the angels Jacob saw needed a stairway/ladder to go back and forth to heaven. So they couldn't just ascend into heaven at will without a ladder.
Perhaps. I don't really know. Shekinah is a Jewish concept and supposed to be the glory of God or something that hides the glory of God. It's also feminine rather than masculine.
When God appeared he often did so in a cloud. Like when Solomon's temple was dedicated the temple was filled with a cloud. This is why I equated the shekinah with the cloud that hides God's presence.
Same idea as in Psalm 18:11; here we see that God hides in thick, dark clouds. Most likely does it for our sakes so that we don't receive lethal doses of radiation.
He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
TreeOfLife
Member
Isaiah 6:5. He sees G-d in all his glory
But his sins were also removed first.
Question. Who Isaiah saw. Was it jehovah. Jesus Christ?
But his sins were also removed first.
Question. Who Isaiah saw. Was it jehovah. Jesus Christ?
paradox
(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Nice one, but we are back to same problem as before, which is taking word for word literally without considering the context which in this case explains appearance of God.
Consider the context Isaiah 6:3-5 specifically verse 4 says the LORD appeared as smoke:
This is a trick question because there are 2 possible answers:
1.) it saw Yahweh (which includes Jesus (and holly spirit))
2.) it saw the Father only
In Isaiah 6:3 a song starts with "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts!":
It's not literally evident that the Lord here is Yahweh but from many passages from the bible it's easy to come to that conclusion, for example read entire chapter 4 of Revelation 4 and you'll see the Lord sits on throne.
You'll find the song from Isaiah in revelation chapter 4 verse 8, indicating that the song is directed toward the Lord
Then in Revelation 5:6-7 you'll see that Jesus is on the right of a throne, there are also several passages found in the bible saying Jesus sit's on the right of the Father, ex. Luke 22:69
The point being here that the song from Isaiah is directed toward the Lord or Yahweh, the one who sits on throne commands the armies (but later in revelation it will be Jesus who commands the armies of 144000 with a sign of a cross on the forehead)
We know from many passages found in OT that "the Lord of hosts" is Yahweh.
The paradox here is that Jesus is also the Lord, Yahweh, therefore it would be incorrect to say that the song is not directed to Jesus as well, since the Father and Sone are one. John 10:30
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The way I explain this is in Genesis. God created the Heavens, Earth and Life in six days and rested on the seventh day. The question that I asked myself was how long did God rest, or how long was the seventh day while God rested?
On the earthly Sabbath, which is an image of heavenly things, one is supposed to rest and not work. If things need to be done on the Sabbath, you are supposed to make provisions ahead of time and if an emergency appears, hire someone to look out for you and do chores that cannot wait.
I assume that while God was on his Sabbath rest, nobody would be able to see him, since he is not on the job to work miracles or give wisdom. Everyone is praying and pleading for his help. God, on the sixth day made provisions for Satan to be in charge while he rested and was not accepting work.
He did this by creating two trees in the garden of Eden. He then set up a prohibition about eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This he knew would create a temptation in Eve than Adam. This was also assigned as Satan's tree. The inevitable fall from paradise of Adam and Even, led them to the land of good and evil, which would be run by Satan. Satan would become the Lord of the Earth, as God rested and recharged his batteries. Satan would take care of the willful needs of the humans after the fall. The rest of creation was designed to care for itself, through the integrated laws of physics.
When Jesus was tempted by Satan, in the wilderness, during his fast, Satan, among other things offers Jesus all the wealth and power of all the kingdoms of the earth, if Jesus would bow and serve him. Jesus does not say this is a lie or trick but rather declines the offer. Jesus knew Satan was the Lord of the Earth who had this authority set by God, as God rested.
Satan was often mistaken for God, as God rested. It appears that God was still resting at the time of Jesus. When Jesus pleas to God; Father, why have you forsaken me, God cannot help him since he is still resting and that was work. Jesus has to go through Satan, as the hired hand of God.
Jesus as the son of God, could see God, as God rested, since he was family and being with family was not work and would not violate the Sabbath rest of God.
If you look throughout both the Old and New Testaments, after the first six days of creation, there is nothing as epic created, until about the Books of Revelations. Things between are often miraculous, such as with Moses, but they could easily be done by subordinates of God; hired hands.
In Revelations, an entire bejeweled city; Heavenly Jerusalem, descends from the sky, with Satan out of the picture. This is epic stuff and shows God is getting back to work. After the 1000 year reign of peace, the old heaven and earth of Genesis, goes away and God creates a new heaven and earth. God is back 100%. But until then, God rested, and others forces were in charge; Satan then Jesus.
I was never taught this, but received it through a hunch. It explains so many questions people have, with a simple solution. Maybe it was the engineer in me. Engineers need to get beyond theory to what can work.
paradox
(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Thank you for your comment.
You seem to imply that God is still at rest even today, all until second coming of Christ when his rest will end. and during that time Satan is in charge?
This can be easily refuted since throughout 7-th day and until heavenly Jerusalem God is pretty busy waging wars and doing all sorts of things, so it's kind of incorrect to say that God is still at rest.
Holly spirit for example does not rest at all, it is always present to guide the church: John 16:13 and Luke 12:11-12
**MOVED TO BIBLICAL DEBATES**
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The wide range of bible traditions do not even consider the idea that God's rest on the seventh day, is more than a coffee break. It is common \to assume God has his coffee and then he is back in business.
But if you look at creation, stars still form on their own using the laws of physics that are still in affect today as in the beginning. Nature was designed to be self sufficient, so God could rest.
The only wild card are those pesky humans, who were given will power and choice and therefore had the ability to depart from the natural and perfected self sustaining program.
God made his provision, so he could rest, as early as when he brooded over the deep. The bulk of creation was designed to be self sufficient. He would only needed others to work for him, to guide and maintain the humans. Those human had the unique ability to leave the divine integration via will and choice. It would take eons before the humans could develop technology and mess up the universe. Animals do not need extra supervision, if we factor out those pesky humans. The humans can harm the earth, overkill the animals and destroy natural habitats that were originally designed to be self sufficient. There were many wars, which was of no surprise, but that is all connected to the humans, not to the rest of creation.
Satan was previously called Lucifer; morning star. Satan/Lucifer had been with God since the old days. As Lucifer he had a part in creation, more or less like adding a randomizer affect to the integration. As an example, he would add more varieties of trees, which would still be integrated This was all good. As Satan, he understood will and choice as being connected to his own nature of randomizing; distinctions create more options for good.
God creates a circumstance that hands the humans; Adam and Eve, to Satan, so he could rest and have someone who could understand and tend to those pesky humans. It was done through a prohibition, that he knew would plant the seed of willful options into their head; want to try. The new option was also about the humans seeing the details of the universe, as good and evil, a new distinction that was not part of creation. It does not change, anything except to the humans.
People want to believe God the Father, never rests and he spends full time caring and worrying about humans, since they lost their way in terms of the integration of nature; paradise. But instead the plan was to let them get this randomizer affect out of their system, via a pro; Satan, before the God the Master has his time with them, but as an advanced version of human; 2.0.
Satan is not the Devil until he is thrown from heaven. Satan, before being thrown from heaven is playing his assigned role in the drama; a valid servant of God. His choices with the pesky Humans were condoned by heaven and are in essence those of God, but with Satan's own spin.
Jesus will became an intermediary to God as his son. But up till Satan is thrown from heaven, which is not clear cut, Satan plays the role of intermediary between God and humans, and was even given the title of Lord of the Earth. He even offers Jesus all the wealth and power of the kingdoms of the earth, so Jesus could become the old Messiah that was anticipated; rich and powerful subduing all enemies. But Jesus refuses the offer, knowing Satan had this power and tradition. Jesus had bigger ambitions than the Messiah who was under Satan. He wanted to be seated next to God and replace Satan.
The Holy Spirit is also more or less also specialized to the humans. You don't hear much of the Holy Spirit taking care of planets or the animals. The Holy Spirit is about truth, which more of a consciousness affect associated with higher human consciousness. Animals live truth. One way to know Satan is still in charge and God still rests, is Law and knowledge of good and evil are still in affect and seen as good. This was connected to the tree of knowledge God said not to eat from. Why would God serve those who continue to depart and not repent? Instead God rested and gave the humans someone they could better relate to; Satan. Satan likes law.
In Revelations, after the Antichrist and False Prophet are dealt with, Satan is not killed, but is held in custody for 1000 years. While in custody, Knowledge of good and evil no longer applies, since Satan has no impact on the humans. For 1000 years, it is no longer yes and no, but only yes in him; Jesus and paradise. After the 1000 years, Satan is released again and good and evil appears; human perceptional affect that makes them feel that all the other nations are evil under their law. This gathers the nations of the world for a huge final battle. Then human 2.0, appears with the tree of life replacing the tree of knowledge of good and evil, forever.
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Truth in love
Well-Known Member
This is one of the common confusions. There is a spot in EX that says no one sees god and the next page says they do.
Man can see God but it is very rare.