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Hey, I'm not very clearly versed on Mormon doctrine, but the Bible speaks very clearly that God is the beginning and the end of all things. He is the great I AM. He is allmighty, all-powerful, all-knowing. All things in this world and the worlds to come were created by him.Aqualung said:He didn't create them for mankind just for fun. I think they were already in existence, so of course we measly humans have to follow them, too.
The laws are outside this world. They were also "in the beginning." He didn't create those laws. (and by the way, I'm not sure if I'm talking mormon doctrine or not. I'm just speaking of my own thoughts)Dentonz said:Hey, I'm not very clearly versed on Mormon doctrine, but the Bible speaks very clearly that God is the beginning and the end of all things. He is the great I AM. He is allmighty, all-powerful, all-knowing. All things in this world and the worlds to come were created by him.
If the Bible is true, he cannot be bound by the laws he created.
Ok, I just didn't want to offend you if I said something against your faith. Yes, I know the laws are outside this world, in space, throughout the universe and so on. But God does not exist in a physical realm. He is in the spiritual realm. In the realm of God there are no physical laws (laws of physics). Is your spiritual man bound by the laws of physics? I know mine is not. Is it possible for a man to be ressurected from the dead after three days? No, not according to science and physics. But you believe it. Somewhere in your soul or spirit you believe deep down that God raised Jesus from the dead. So you must believe in the spiritual realm.Aqualung said:The laws are outside this world. They were also "in the beginning." He didn't create those laws. (and by the way, I'm not sure if I'm talking mormon doctrine or not. I'm just speaking of my own thoughts)
If you have a perfected knowledgeof these laws, it is possible.Dentonz said:Ok, I just didn't want to offend you if I said something against your faith. Yes, I know the laws are outside this world, in space, throughout the universe and so on. But God does not exist in a physical realm. He is in the spiritual realm. In the realm of God there are no physical laws (laws of physics). Is your spiritual man bound by the laws of physics? I know mine is not. Is it possible for a man to be ressurected from the dead after three days? No, not according to science and physics. But you believe it. Somewhere in your soul or spirit you believe deep down that God raised Jesus from the dead. So you must believe in the spiritual realm.
If you do, please enlighten me. I don't believe that we have even figured out how the ancient Egyptians built the pyramids. There are many things that are physical in our world that in all our knowledge we don't understand. So, I don't think anybody has a perfected knowledge of physical laws.Aqualung said:If you have a perfected knowledgeof these laws, it is possible.
kathryn said:If I leave a big juicy steak sitting on my kitchen counter and walk out of the room, leaving my two Collies in the kitchen alone, and then return 15 minutes later, the steak will be gone. I can guarantee this, and I'm not God.
Very good point Kathryn - very much as I see it.Kathryn said:God didn't force Peter to do anything. Peter chose to do what he did. God just knew Him well enough to be able to predict -- with 100% accuracy -- how he would react to a given set of circumstances.
Well, yes, but they're dogs and therefore incapable of making a decision based upon the knowledge that it wouldn't be nice to eat their owners' dinner. I think Peter could have resisted the temptation. It wasn't as if he was forced into anything. He just had a weakness and Jesus knew it. Jesus actually did nothing but call this weakness to Peter's attention. If you stop to think about it, that was actually giving Peter an advantage. Knowing beforehand that he was going to be tempted could have given him the additional self-discipline to stand up for Jesus. But he chose, instead, to give in to temptation. If you say that he was tempted beyond his ability to resist, you'd have to acknowledge that to be the case whenever any of us sins. That would be a kind of a devil-made-me-do-it response to weakness in character, in my opinion.
Your choices exclude the possibility that the author of Matthew's Gospel wrote from hindsight. The events had already occured, and the author could have put the words into the mouth of Jesus.Aqualung said:Sorry! I meant matthew, not mark.
"Before the cock crows, thou shalt deny me thrice."
How could Jesus have known this, granted that:
A) He gave us free will, and therefore Peter could have chosen not to deny.
B) God will not tempt us past our ability to withstand.
I have been working on this one with No*s for several years. Basically, I think that God knows all that there is to know. Therefore, he knows the possibility of every outcome for every situation - the end result of every choice and how it could possibly affect every thing else in the world as our choices affect others. From this perspective, God can see the future by knowing the outcome of every possible choice, but the actual choice is unknowable before it occurs.Aqualung said:But doesn't the knowledge of it preclude free will? Does Him knowing what choice I'll make rule out me having free will to change my mind?
But given that God is eternal and outside of time, there really is no such thing as 'before it occurs' from His point of view. Someone suggesting then, that God's knowing the actions we will make means we have no free will is rather like me saying that because I know Hitler shot himself I caused him to do so.angellous_evangellous said:I have been working on this one with No*s for several years. Basically, I think that God knows all that there is to know. Therefore, he knows the possibility of every outcome for every situation - the end result of every choice and how it could possibly affect every thing else in the world as our choices affect others. From this perspective, God can see the future by knowing the outcome of every possible choice, but the actual choice is unknowable before it occurs.
I don't have that perfected knowledge. God does. Therefore, when he does thing that seem miraculous, he is really just operating under those same laws that you and I operate under. But with a better understanding of those laws, he can do a lot cooler stuff.Dentonz said:If you do, please enlighten me.
And all I'm trying to say is I believe he does.Dentonz said:All I am trying to say through all of this is, I believe that God does not exist physically in our world, dimension, whatever.
I think people tend to misunderstand what "all-powerful" means. I see it more as meaning "being able to do everything that it is possible to do," and not "being able to do the impossible." It's not possible (in my beliefs) for God to step outside of the laws of nature.Dentonz said:If he is controlled by something, he is not all-powerfull.
That's pretty much exactly what I believe.angellous_evangellous said:I have been working on this one with No*s for several years. Basically, I think that God knows all that there is to know. Therefore, he knows the possibility of every outcome for every situation - the end result of every choice and how it could possibly affect every thing else in the world as our choices affect others. From this perspective, God can see the future by knowing the outcome of every possible choice, but the actual choice is unknowable before it occurs.
Aqua -- I know you will make at least one more post today on this forum. Does that mean that I am causing you to do it?Aqualung said:But doesn't the knowledge of it preclude free will? Does Him knowing what choice I'll make rule out me having free will to change my mind?
Frubals then. We need to keep this idea strong!:jam:Aqualung said:That's pretty much exactly what I believe.
No. My addiction is forcing me to make another post!SoyLeche said:Aqua -- I know you will make at least one more post today on this forum. Does that mean that I am causing you to do it?
And I don't even know you as well as God does :biglaugh:Aqualung said:No. My addiction is forcing me to make another post!
I agree without doubt that God exists outside of time and nature, but He interacts with nature in a very special way. My reasoning has a critical metaphor. Being all-powerful, God can do all things that are possible to do. However, it is widely accepted by theologians that God cannot make a square circle, or a triangle with four sides. God cannot make a God more powerful than Himself. In order for us to have freewill, which is something that the fathers asserted, God cannot know the outcome of a choice before it is made.JamesThePersian said:But given that God is eternal and outside of time, there really is no such thing as 'before it occurs' from His point of view. Someone suggesting then, that God's knowing the actions we will make means we have no free will is rather like me saying that because I know Hitler shot himself I caused him to do so.
James