Christians - Mark 26:34

[Aqualung]

I believe it is as simple as this: Jesus made a prediction, and that prediction came true. I think that once Jesus told Peter about it, he sort of forgot about it, shrugging it off because he didn't think it would ever happen. So when it really happened, he finally realized what he had done. Kind of like the rooster was a reminder that triggered the waterworks.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, he made a prediction. But once again, was this a mere educated guess?

I do not believe your thoughts are typical of a theist, but rather they seem to represent the beliefs of a pantheist.

The laws of physics, or "nature" as we know it, is a creation unto itself. SoyLeche recommended C.S. Lewis and I would to. He has a great description of nature as a beautiful and dangerous creature. But it is one that is created, and created for a very specific purpose.

In fact, it is the laws of physics that allows us to have freewill. Without our ability to predict the effect to a particular cause, we would not be able to enact our will.

Interesting thoughts. I didn't know what a pantheist was.

 

[Linus]

Yeah, he made a prediction. But once again, was this a mere educated guess?

I don't think so. It's like when Jesus said at the last supper that one of the Apostles (Judas) would betray him. It's somehting He knew would happen.

 

[Aqualung]

But then did Judas have the choice to not betray him?

 

[Melody]

How could Jesus have known this, granted that:
A) He gave us free will, and therefore Peter could have chosen not to deny.
B) God will not tempt us past our ability to withstand.

A) Knowing how we will choose does not take away our free will. God just knows all the possibilities and choices and ultimately knows the one we will choose.

B) Basically says that Peter could have resisted the temptation to deny, but chose not to.

But then did Judas have the choice to not betray him?

Yes, Judas did have the choice and could have....but he CHOSE not to.

 

[Aqualung]

A) Knowing how we will choose does not take away our free will. God just knows all the possibilities and choices and ultimately knows the one we will choose.

B) Basically says that Peter could have resisted the temptation to deny, but chose not to.



Yes, Judas did have the choice and could have....but he CHOSE not to.

And did Jesus know that's what he would choose? If he did actually know that, how did Judas have the choice?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The Bible does not say anything about God being able to do things that are possible to do. The Bible does say that he can do all things, and nothing is impossible to God. Is it possible for anything to be created from nothing? No, it is absolutely impossible to create something from nothing. Nevertheless, the earth and all the universe is here. There was nothing; God spoke, and it became something. And of course God cannot create another god that would be more powerfull, because that god would be a creation. God was not created, he has always been. And putting human limitations on God such as physicall strength is absolutely absurd:banghead3 :banghead3 !! God can't create a one-wheeled bicycle or a square triangle or a round square, because when you change something it becomes something else. He still has absolute and total power over all.

My God is not inside the box of man's very limited understanding.
No matter what dictionary you use, omnipotent means omnipotent.

So what you are say is:

God is omnipotent, therefore He can do anything

This means that God has no limits to his nature at all

So can create another God more powerful than himself and create something so heavy that he cannot lift it.

Are you really having trouble with the concept that God is limited by things that limit His power? If God creates something so heavy that he cannot lift it, then He is no longer all powerful. So in your view, omnipotnet means omnipotent, so God can create anything from nothing, including things that limit his power. I see in the NT and OT that God's power is limited. For example, God has promised that His character will not change, and that He is One, even though He has the power to create a more powerful God.

EDIT: I am not putting human limitations on God. I previously said that we are limited by our human nature, and from the orthodox Christian point of view, God is limited by his divine nature. That is, God will not change his character, indeed, he does not have the power to do so. God cannot sin. God cannot create something that limits his power, otherwise he would no longer be all-powerful - that is not a human limitation but a divine one.

EDIT #2: I don't see how you can recoincile these statements:

1) The Bible does say that he can do all things, and nothing is impossible to God.
2) God can't create a one-wheeled bicycle or a square triangle or a round square, because when you change something it becomes something else. (If God can't do something, then he does not fit your definition of omnipotence - If God IS omnipotent, he can find a way to make a one-wheeled bicycle and a square with five sides, a triangular circle, or whatever)
3) He still has absolute and total power over all. (but not over bicycles and circles and triangles - what kind of a God are you talking about?)

Um, aren't you saying that God is limited by what is possible for him to do? I think that you are violating rules of your own logic (omnipotence means omnipotence). If God is strictly all-powerful with no logical restraints, then he can do anything, like making a one-wheeled bicycle. I am glad to see that you at least addressed one of my points (a one-wheeled bicycle would fall into the same category as making a triangle with four sides). I would like for you to address other limits of God's power like making something to heavy for him to lift.

If God can't make something too heavy for him to lift, then he does not fit your dictionary definition of omnipotent. If he can create something too heavy for him to lift, then he's not all powerful. Think about it.

 

[Melody]

And did Jesus know that's what he would choose? If he did actually know that, how did Judas have the choice?

Yes, Jesus did know according to the following verse:

When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?”
He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?”
He said to him, “You have said it.”
Matthew 26:20-25

Jesus knew the choice he would make because He is God and knows what our ultimate choices will be. Sure He could step in and stop us from making the bad choice, but then there would be no free will.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

A) Knowing how we will choose does not take away our free will. God just knows all the possibilities and choices and ultimately knows the one we will choose.

B) Basically says that Peter could have resisted the temptation to deny, but chose not to.



Yes, Judas did have the choice and could have....but he CHOSE not to.

Melody,

I see a huge difference between knowing the possible outcome of a choice and knowing the actual outcome of a choice before it is made. If God actually knows the outcome each individual choice, like knowing exactly which choice we will make before we make it, there is no need whatsoever for God to know all of the possibilities for every outcome. That is, if he knows the outcomes, knowing the possibility for every outcome is useless (in both cases our friend's dictionary definition of omnipotence fails).

If God knows every outcome, then the choices have already been made, and there is no freewill. If God knows every possible outcome for every choice, then we are free to choose for ourselves.

 

[Linus]

But then did Judas have the choice to not betray him?

Of course...

 

[Melody]

If God knows every outcome, then the choices have already been made, and there is no freewill. If God knows every possible outcome for every choice, then we are free to choose for ourselves.

No...he just knows which choices we are going to make and chooses to allow us freewill.

If you overhear your child talking about how they're going to ditch school the next day and you stop them because you know what's best, you've just negated their freewill.

If you know, but stand back and do nothing since they have free will and choice, have you taken away their free will just by your "knowing"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No...he just knows which choices we are going to make and chooses to allow us freewill.

If you overhear your child talking about how they're going to ditch school the next day and you stop them because you know what's best, you've just negated their freewill.

If you know, but stand back and do nothing since they have free will and choice, have you taken away their free will just by your "knowing"?

You give some excellent examples. If God is absolutely all-powerful (eg, making square circles), then He can find a way to know which choices we are going to make and choose to allow us to make the choice. Obviously, I categorize freewill and absolute foreknowledge as mutually exclusive, like God making a triangle with four sides. If God made a triangle with four sides, it simply ceases to be a triangle. A triangle must have four sides, anything else is not a triangle. Freewill requires an absolute variety - no outcome can be known before the choice is made. Anything less and it cannot be defined as freewill; it has become something else.

 

[Aqualung]

A triangle must have four sides

Triangles must have 3 sides, angelous.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Triangles must have 3 sides, angelous.

Not if God makes it! :biglaugh:

 

[blueman]

Jesus shared the same attributes to deity with the Father, but voluntarily gave up independent use of these attributes when He was incarnated (Read Phillipians 2). He was more dependent on the Father while He was here on earth during His three-year ministry. God knows our hearts and although He gave us free-will, He still knows what we are going to do before we even think about it. Sometimes are decisions are driven by the flesh rather than by the Spirit. Henceforth, we still have the capacity to screw up from time to time. The Father revealed Peter's future actions to the Son knowing that Peter would deny Christ out of fear subsequent to Jesus' arrest.