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Christians - Mark 26:34

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Aqualung, Oct 4, 2005.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Sorry! I meant matthew, not mark. :eek:



    "Before the cock crows, thou shalt deny me thrice."

    How could Jesus have known this, granted that:
    A) He gave us free will, and therefore Peter could have chosen not to deny.
    B) God will not tempt us past our ability to withstand.
     
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  2. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

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    Fantastic post. I look forward to the responses. :)
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Aqualung.

    If I leave a big juicy steak sitting on my kitchen counter and walk out of the room, leaving my two Collies in the kitchen alone, and then return 15 minutes later, the steak will be gone. I can guarantee this, and I'm not God.

    God didn't force Peter to do anything. Peter chose to do what he did. God just knew Him well enough to be able to predict -- with 100% accuracy -- how he would react to a given set of circumstances.

    Kathryn
     
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  4. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    But if you left a big juicy steak on your table, wouldn't that be tempting your dogs with something that you knew they couldn't resist?
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, yes, but they're dogs and therefore incapable of making a decision based upon the knowledge that it wouldn't be nice to eat their owners' dinner. I think Peter could have resisted the temptation. It wasn't as if he was forced into anything. He just had a weakness and Jesus knew it. Jesus actually did nothing but call this weakness to Peter's attention. If you stop to think about it, that was actually giving Peter an advantage. Knowing beforehand that he was going to be tempted could have given him the additional self-discipline to stand up for Jesus. But he chose, instead, to give in to temptation. If you say that he was tempted beyond his ability to resist, you'd have to acknowledge that to be the case whenever any of us sins. That would be a kind of a devil-made-me-do-it response to weakness in character, in my opinion.
     
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  6. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    But how could he have known that peter would give in. Because what if he didn't? Then Jesus would be made the liar.
     
  7. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Excuse me,

    Am I missing something here? Isn't that passage in Mark 14:30? Where did the extra 12 chapters come from?
     
  8. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Because I accidentally wrote Mark instead of Matthew. :eek: I edited my original post, though, so I hope that helps.
     
  9. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    My brother, yes we have free will, but your putting The Allmighty in a realm controlled by time. God is the Father of time, he is outside of time, he can see the creation and armageddon all at once. He knew everything that Peter or you would choose to do before your ancestors were ever even thought of. Even if you don't believe Jesus was God incarnate, surely you believe the Son could here his own Father, Even the Prophets could hear when God spoke to them.
     
  10. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    But doesn't the knowledge of it preclude free will? Does Him knowing what choice I'll make rule out me having free will to change my mind?
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    No because he still had a choice, and at the time of the arrest and trial etc it would be easy to forget the what Jesus had spoken to him, thats why he didnt remember until he heard the rooster crow - it reminded him.
    Immediately a rooster crowed. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly. Matthew 26:75
    Just because Jesus knew he would do it dosnt mean it wasnt Peters choice.
     
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  12. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    Your trying to understand mysteries of God with intelect. That's impossible.
    You cannot change the future, the change is the future. You are free to make whatever choices you want to. It's just that God knows what they will be.
     
  13. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Is it impossible? Since when did God become so distant and un-understandable?
     
  14. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Good post. I can't frubal you, though. This must be the first time in my entire life I have given out all my frubals for 24 hrs.
     
  15. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    What I am trying to say is; mankind is bound by the laws of physics. God is not. It takes faith, not intelect, to believe something as scientifically absurd.
     
  16. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi AL,

    The answer is quite easy, Jesus knew the people around Him and people in general. It is not a stretch of the imagination to equate this ability with one that comes with age. I have predicted many actions by people in situations by knowing their nature and human nature in general. Don't mistake this for any kind of comparison of myself to Jesus. It is just understanding that He was spiritually advanced from us and would know these things that those around Him wouldn't be conscious of.
     
  17. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    He's not? :areyoucra

    Jesus didn't just predict it. He knew.
     
  18. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Picking hairs or agreeing?
     
  19. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Ummm, I don't know. I might have misunderstood what you were trying to say. :biglaugh:
     
  20. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    Come on man, you can't tell me that you believe the Allmighty God that spoke the billions of galaxies into existence is bound by the laws that he created for mankind.:areyoucra
     
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