1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians - Mark 26:34

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Aqualung, Oct 4, 2005.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    He didn't create them for mankind just for fun. I think they were already in existence, so of course we measly humans have to follow them, too.
     
  2. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    234
    Ratings:
    +27
    Hey, I'm not very clearly versed on Mormon doctrine, but the Bible speaks very clearly that God is the beginning and the end of all things. He is the great I AM. He is allmighty, all-powerful, all-knowing. All things in this world and the worlds to come were created by him.
    If the Bible is true, he cannot be bound by the laws he created.
     
  3. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    The laws are outside this world. They were also "in the beginning." He didn't create those laws. (and by the way, I'm not sure if I'm talking mormon doctrine or not. I'm just speaking of my own thoughts)
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,195
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Jesus knew Peter far better than Peter knew himself and I think their relationship was AWESOME. First you have to understand Peter: he was impetuous, brash and a coward. He worried how others perceived him. If you modernise his name, we would call him "Rock Johnson" today. Who else had the temerity to rebuke our Lord? :D Check this out:

    Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

    22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." NIV

    Jesus knew just how Peter would respond to the stress of the scourge. He knew it not only as a Friend but as God. He IS wiser than all of us combined. Let's take a look at

    Luke 22:31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."


    33 But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." 34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." NIV

    The man had an unrealistic view of his faith: something that is true about most of us!

    But of course, the best part of this segment of Peter's life is the resolution that takes place in the last chapter of John.
     
  5. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    234
    Ratings:
    +27
    Ok, I just didn't want to offend you if I said something against your faith. Yes, I know the laws are outside this world, in space, throughout the universe and so on. But God does not exist in a physical realm. He is in the spiritual realm. In the realm of God there are no physical laws (laws of physics). Is your spiritual man bound by the laws of physics? I know mine is not. Is it possible for a man to be ressurected from the dead after three days? No, not according to science and physics. But you believe it. Somewhere in your soul or spirit you believe deep down that God raised Jesus from the dead. So you must believe in the spiritual realm.
     
  6. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    If you have a perfected knowledgeof these laws, it is possible.
     
  7. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    234
    Ratings:
    +27
    If you do, please enlighten me. I don't believe that we have even figured out how the ancient Egyptians built the pyramids. There are many things that are physical in our world that in all our knowledge we don't understand. So, I don't think anybody has a perfected knowledge of physical laws.
    All I am trying to say through all of this is, I believe that God does not exist physically in our world, dimension, whatever. I believe the Bible teaches that he is spiritual in nature and that he created all things and is therefore not controlled by the laws he created. If he is controlled by something, he is not all-powerfull. And if we don't believe that, we might as well jump on the bandwagon with everybody else that don't believe in God. If he is not the God of the Bible then we don't have anything to base our faith on. Because if he's not who he says he is, our whole faith is in vain.
     
  8. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,522
    Ratings:
    +880
    Religion:
    LDS
    Just to throw this into the conversation -- I'm not sure I buy it myself -- but I have heard it said before that it is possible that Jesus was commanding Peter to deny him ("thou shalt" deny me thrice). I think this idea actually brings up more questions than it answers though.
     
  9. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,522
    Ratings:
    +880
    Religion:
    LDS
    If you have access to James E. Talmage's "Jesus the Christ" -- there is a footnote at the end of one of the chapters that addresses the question you posed, not specifically about Peter, but about God's foreknowledge in general. Sorry I can't be more specific about that one.

    Also, check out C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity". He explains things in such a way that I can start to understand them. I don't agree with everything he says (mostly about the Trinity), but he offers some great insight. The chapter I'm thinking about specifically is the one about Time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,672
    Ratings:
    +2,659
    Very good point Kathryn - very much as I see it.;)
     
  11. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    Your choices exclude the possibility that the author of Matthew's Gospel wrote from hindsight. The events had already occured, and the author could have put the words into the mouth of Jesus.
     
  12. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    I have been working on this one with No*s for several years. Basically, I think that God knows all that there is to know. Therefore, he knows the possibility of every outcome for every situation - the end result of every choice and how it could possibly affect every thing else in the world as our choices affect others. From this perspective, God can see the future by knowing the outcome of every possible choice, but the actual choice is unknowable before it occurs.
     
  13. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,416
    Ratings:
    +656
    But given that God is eternal and outside of time, there really is no such thing as 'before it occurs' from His point of view. Someone suggesting then, that God's knowing the actions we will make means we have no free will is rather like me saying that because I know Hitler shot himself I caused him to do so.

    James
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    I don't have that perfected knowledge. God does. Therefore, when he does thing that seem miraculous, he is really just operating under those same laws that you and I operate under. But with a better understanding of those laws, he can do a lot cooler stuff.

    And all I'm trying to say is I believe he does.

    I think people tend to misunderstand what "all-powerful" means. I see it more as meaning "being able to do everything that it is possible to do," and not "being able to do the impossible." It's not possible (in my beliefs) for God to step outside of the laws of nature.
     
  15. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    That's pretty much exactly what I believe.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,522
    Ratings:
    +880
    Religion:
    LDS
    Aqua -- I know you will make at least one more post today on this forum. Does that mean that I am causing you to do it? ;)
     
  17. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    Frubals then. We need to keep this idea strong!:jam:
     
  18. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    No. My addiction is forcing me to make another post! :D
     
  19. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,522
    Ratings:
    +880
    Religion:
    LDS
    And I don't even know you as well as God does :biglaugh:
     
  20. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree without doubt that God exists outside of time and nature, but He interacts with nature in a very special way. My reasoning has a critical metaphor. Being all-powerful, God can do all things that are possible to do. However, it is widely accepted by theologians that God cannot make a square circle, or a triangle with four sides. God cannot make a God more powerful than Himself. In order for us to have freewill, which is something that the fathers asserted, God cannot know the outcome of a choice before it is made.
     
Loading...