Christians:Is The Trinity Truly Biblical(A Separate Thread)

[Scott1]

If Jesus isn't God then the Bible, Judaism and Christianity are just a mythological falsies. A good majority of the Bible is the prophetic fore tellings and prophetic manifestation of Jesus's deity.

Ummmm.... and you're a non-Trinitarian.... or you just ignored that part of my question?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Ummmm.... and you're a non-Trinitarian.... or you just ignored that part of my question?

Sorry scott1, I was just answering the question because you quoted me. Trinitarians, to the best of my knowledge, believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, but Scripture points out that Jesus is a subordinate of the Father. i believe this to be true to an extent. Never-the-less, I'm curious for a Trinitarian's answer to your question.

 

[Scott1]

Sorry scott1, I was just answering the question because you quoted me. Trinitarians, to the best of my knowledge, believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, but Scripture points out that Jesus is a subordinate of the Father. i believe this to be true to an extent. Never-the-less, I'm curious for a Trinitarian's answer to your question.

OK... just wanted to make sure... got me confused for a bit (not a difficult thing to do).... and I'm also curious.... a non-divine Jesus sounds like a nut to me and I can't wait to hear some replies.

Peace

 

[sojourner]

I see what you mean......

Each postal worker is separate from that which they serve. They all work together for one unified purpose but are separate none the less.

I agree with certain parts of your analogy but it of itself helps both of our cases. You can view them as one "Post Office" and I have no problem separating the worker from the collective. I have no problem understanding that the gun toting mad man bent on shooting up the joint does not represent the views of "the post office"....Or the lazy postal worker who stock piles years worth of main in his house because he wants to lighten his load. So although there is a post office not all of its workers are equal.

Your understanding is fine, except that you're forgetting one important piece of the puzzle. The Post Office is a human institution, and therefore fallible. (Lazy and crazy workers who do not represent the ethos of the Post Office). God is Divine, and therefore infallible. (There is no evidence that either Jesus or the Holy Spirit are either lazy or crazy. and they both do represent the ethos of God). Even though they are separate persons, and may be identified as such, they are also fully of the Being of God and identifiable as such.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Your understanding is fine, except that you're forgetting one important piece of the puzzle. The Post Office is a human institution, and therefore fallible. (Lazy and crazy workers who do not represent the ethos of the Post Office). God is Divine, and therefore infallible. (There is no evidence that either Jesus or the Holy Spirit are either lazy or crazy. and they both do represent the ethos of God). Even though they are separate persons, and may be identified as such, they are also fully of the Being of God and identifiable as such.

I may not always agree with the interpretations but I do respect your position.

 

[Katzpur]

OK... just wanted to make sure... got me confused for a bit (not a difficult thing to do).... and I'm also curious.... a non-divine Jesus sounds like a nut to me and I can't wait to hear some replies.

The Father could be greater than the Son but still have a divine Son. I believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. When I use the word "subordinate," I am not referring to the Son as an inferior being, but as holding a subordinate position in the relationship. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human. The Son is equal to His Father in terms of His divine attributes, but acknowledges the Father as being greater than He in the same way that most sons look up to their fathers.

 

[Scott1]

The Father could be greater than the Son but still have a divine Son. I believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father.

Well... we've been through this before my friend... I don't find any evidence for the concept of "multiple dimensions" of divinity.... and Jesus being "divine-light"/subordinate (IMO) destroys something that is essential to the Christian faith.

He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. When I use the word "subordinate," I am not referring to the Son as an inferior being, but as holding a subordinate position in the relationship. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being.

Yes.... I do understand your thinking, but you know that the Christian faith has tought this as an error since early in the development of the Church.
"Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."
Council of Toledo XI (675)

To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human. The Son is equal to His Father in terms of His divine attributes, but acknowledges the Father as being greater than He in the same way that most sons look up to their fathers.

The problem is (as it was during the early church) once you start down the slippery slope of subordination it is not too far a leap for other false teaching to creep in: that Jesus was not divine at all.... that Jesus was not human at all.... the he was human but "adopted" by divinity etc. etc. The only teaching that could prevent such errors was a forceful proclamation that announced the the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith":
We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".
Council of Constantinople II (553)

Hope you have been well...
Scott

 

[uss_bigd]

We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".
Council of Constantinople II (553)

Scott

The question of this thread is "is the trinity biblical"

The Trinity accoring to the book " faith of our fathers" authored by Catholic bishops stated 3 co-equal beings.

as Katspur argued, which i can biblically support, Jesus is a subordinate to the father but still holds a divine status.

We should not insert extra biblical references such as the council of constantinpole becuse the question is " is the trinity biblical"

 

[sojourner]

The question of this thread is "is the trinity biblical"

The Trinity accoring to the book " faith of our fathers" authored by Catholic bishops stated 3 co-equal beings.

as Katspur argued, which i can biblically support, Jesus is a subordinate to the father but still holds a divine status.

We should not insert extra biblical references such as the council of constantinpole becuse the question is " is the trinity biblical"

Can you lift (cut-and-paste) the quotation from that book that says "3 co-equal beings?" I'd be interested to see it.

 

[uss_bigd]

Can you lift (cut-and-paste) the quotation from that book that says "3 co-equal beings?" I'd be interested to see it.

I am looking for the book over the internet. I have yet to find it, therefore i am unable to paste the copy of the book.






What i have is a video discussing the doctrine of the trinity indicated in the book

here is a link The Old Path TV - Streaming Media site of Members Church of God International#

if the video does not load right away, search for trinity.

 

[doppelganger]

This is being debated on another thread and I know that it has probably been discussed to death but...
Is it? I never really questioned it until recently. Does the bible truly say that God is "Three Persons of One Essence"? I am not questioning whether Jesus is God because I still believe that with no question.
Any verses and explanations (I would prefer that verses also contain what you get from them if that is possible) are welcome.

There are verses both ways, so whichever you want it to be, read those ones and just ignore the others . . .

 

[sojourner]

I am looking for the book over the internet. I have yet to find it, therefore i am unable to paste the copy of the book.






What i have is a video discussing the doctrine of the trinity indicated in the book

here is a link The Old Path TV - Streaming Media site of Members Church of God International#

if the video does not load right away, search for trinity.

I'm not interested in hearing someone else's take on the doctrine. I want to see the doctrine.

 

[uss_bigd]

I'm not interested in hearing someone else's take on the doctrine. I want to see the doctrine.

I dont' have a soft copy of the book to post in here.

I provided you the link to the video because the video showed the book and the doctrine you are looking for.

 

[sojourner]

I dont' have a soft copy of the book to post in here.

I provided you the link to the video because the video showed the book and the doctrine you are looking for.

Habeas corpus, please!

 

[Scott1]

Habeas corpus, please!

** doing best big d impersonation **

"Hey... that's not in the BIBLE!"

 

[ayani]

well... i don't read the word "trinity" anywhere in there. and as i have understood it, a Jew at the time of Jesus would have understood "holy spirit" to simply mean "God's holy spirit of inspiration", not a separate being or entity from God.

i kind of don't mind, though. i can't explain another person's faith to them (though in the past i've tried, arrogantly), but only attempt to explain what i feel and believe.

 

[Katzpur]

well... i don't read the word "trinity" anywhere in there. and as i have understood it, a Jew at the time of Jesus would have understood "holy spirit" to simply mean "God's holy spirit of inspiration", not a separate being or entity from God.

But how would you explain 1 John 5:7-8?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

I'm definitely not arguing in favor of the Trinity, but this verse does clearly imply that there are three separate entities that are, in some way, "one." I think the question is, "How are they one?"

 

[ayani]

But how would you explain 1 John 5:7-8?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

I'm definitely not arguing in favor of the Trinity, but this verse does clearly imply that there are three separate entities that are, in some way, "one." I think the question is, "How are they one?"

well.... i guess it's a matter of faith. in other words, perhaps, God works through Jesus, sends the Holy Spirit, and guides us with the Spirit and the teachings and person of Jesus. it's also possible, Katz, that trinitarian ideas were written in later manuscripts as the Bible was codified. right now, i think i'm safe in calling myself a "unitarian Christian", if i'm going to call myself Christian.

yet i do have to remind myself that this doesn't give me the right to try and tear down the faith of confidently trinitarian Christians.

 

[Katzpur]

well.... i guess it's a matter of faith. in other words, perhaps, God works through Jesus, sends the Holy Spirit, and guides us with the Spirit and the teachings and person of Jesus.

That sounds like a pretty good explanation to me.

it's also possible, Katz, that trinitarian ideas were written in later manuscripts as the Bible was codified.

I believe it's not only possible, it's fact.

right now, i think i'm safe in calling myself a "unitarian Christian", if i'm going to call myself Christian, yet i do have to remind myself that this doesn't give me the right to try and tear down the faith of confidently trinitarian Christians.

Well, in all the time you and I have been posting on RF, ayani, I can't recall ever having seen you tear down anybody's faith. So I'm kind of thinking that you have pretty much internalized the quality of showing respect for other people's beliefs. :yes:

 

[ayani]

Katz ~

as a dear friend of mine would say, "you're no less..." respectful, kind, and faithful. and Christian, too.:flower2: