Christians:Is The Trinity Truly Biblical(A Separate Thread)

[ChristineES]

This is being debated on another thread and I know that it has probably been discussed to death but...
Is it? I never really questioned it until recently. Does the bible truly say that God is "Three Persons of One Essence"? I am not questioning whether Jesus is God because I still believe that with no question.
Any verses and explanations (I would prefer that verses also contain what you get from them if that is possible) are welcome.

 

[Dunemeister]

The bible doesn't have a developed, Nicean formulation of God's nature. But, it does say that there is one and only one God who is indivisible. It also gives the title "God" to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It further says that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit can relate to each other on an "I/Thou" basis. So the Trinity is an attempt to harmonize this data. So although the bible doesn't directly teach the Trinity, it provides the intuitions that make the doctrine of the Trinity necessary.

 

[uss_bigd]

The concept of the trinity is not biblical. trinitarians will argue that it is a mystery and are unable to explain the spritual significance of the concept of "in one essence "

I can show you why it is spiritually significant that they are three distinct and seperate beings.

Let us start by asking who appoints the ministerial priesthood of the church in the bible?

HEB 5:4

"And no man taketh the honor unto himself, but when he is called of God, even as was Aaron."

God appoints the ministeral priesthood of the church. and Paul emphasized that. read on...

HEB 5:5
"So Christ also glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but he that spake unto him, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee:"

Paul emphasized that even Jesus was appointed by GOD as well.

• now, if they were of the same essence, this biblical account of the significance of the priesthood will no longer make sense. but rather a foolish story showing a monologue with no significance what so ever.

furthermore, the distinctness of Jesus from the father is further proved by this verse

John 14:28
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I"

• The verse above clearly states the father is greater than Christ, how can they be the same essence if one is greater than the other?
• when paul said "So Christ also glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but he that spake unto him, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee:" he implied that father was greater than Jesus.
• and John authenicates what paul implied in the verse below:

John 14:28

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


and lastly, the punishment for the sins commited against Jesus and the holy spirit are not equal.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

if they are one essence, why then is it forgivable to speak against christ and it is not forgivable if it is against the holy ghost?

with this bibical facts, Paul, John and Matthew corroborated and supported each other. and all the trinitarians can say is " it is a mystery "

I hope you understand.

 

[Dunemeister]

And of course, as uss_bigd persists in misunderstanding is that the trinitarian fully accepts the distinction between the persons. However, all of these persons the bible calls "God." Yet the bible also clearly says that there is only one God. So if uss_bigd is right, he believes in three gods, clearly violating a central tenet of biblical faith.

 

[Ratiocinative]

And of course, as uss_bigd persists in misunderstanding is that the trinitarian fully accepts the distinction between the persons. However, all of these persons the bible calls "God." Yet the bible also clearly says that there is only one God. So if uss_bigd is right, he believes in three gods, clearly violating a central tenet of biblical faith.

Agreed. uss_bigd just continually dodges the issue at hand. Is the Father God? Is Christ God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Is there only one God? Are they all separate in some way? The Bible says yes to all these things, which is what the Trinity says. All those verses prove is that they are separate in some manner, which is what the Trinity says.

 

[Katzpur]

This is being debated on another thread and I know that it has probably been discussed to death but...
Is it?

If you are referring the the Trinity as described in the 4th and 5th century Creeds, no, I don't believe it's biblical.

I never really questioned it until recently. Does the bible truly say that God is "Three Persons of One Essence"? I am not questioning whether Jesus is God because I still believe that with no question.

The words "essence" and "substance" as used in the Creeds to describe God come from Greek philosophy. At the time the Nicene Creed was written, most of the educated Christians were schooled in Greek thought and were merely to trying to understand the nature of God in terms that they were familiar with. The Bible clearly states that Jesus and His Father are "one" but it doesn't say they are "one essence." In John 17, when Christ offers His great intercessory prayer to His Father, He asks that His followers may all be "one, even as we are one." Unless it was His desire that we all be absorbed into the essence of the Trinity, which doesn't seem very likely to me, He was referring to a oneness or unity of will and purpose. He and His Father are definitely "one" but not "one essence."

 

[uss_bigd]

And of course, as uss_bigd persists in misunderstanding is that the trinitarian fully accepts the distinction between the persons. However, all of these persons the bible calls "God." Yet the bible also clearly says that there is only one God. So if uss_bigd is right, he believes in three gods, clearly violating a central tenet of biblical faith.

Psalms 82:1

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment

Psalm 82:1

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalms 82:1
1When all of the other gods have come together,

the Lord God judges them and says:

God, stand in the congregation of the mighty and judgeth AMONG THE GODS

Biblically speaking, there are more than one GOD.

You also persist to misunderstand the significance of them being three seperate persons.

You have not in anyway tried to explain why it is significant for them to have one essence. which you can't biblically explain anyway.

You cannot in anyway say that verses i qouted are wrong, well you shouldn't anyway because it will be rejecting the one who said that.

give it up dunmiester.

 

[uss_bigd]

Agreed. uss_bigd just continually dodges the issue at hand. Is the Father God? Is Christ God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Is there only one God? Are they all separate in some way? The Bible says yes to all these things, which is what the Trinity says. All those verses prove is that they are separate in some manner, which is what the Trinity says.

Read my reply to dunmiester.

 

[sojourner]

Psalms 82:1

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment

Psalm 82:1

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods

Psalms 82:1
1When all of the other gods have come together,

the Lord God judges them and says:

God, stand in the congregation of the mighty and judgeth AMONG THE GODS

Biblically speaking, there are more than one GOD.

You also persist to misunderstand the significance of them being three seperate persons.

You have not in anyway tried to explain why it is significant for them to have one essence. which you can't biblically explain anyway.

You cannot in anyway say that verses i qouted are wrong, well you shouldn't anyway because it will be rejecting the one who said that.

give it up dunmiester.

It's not the Biblical verses that are "wrong." The issue is interpretation of Biblical content. It is significant for them to have one essence, which can and has been Biblically explained on several occasions.

The whole reason why the Trinity is a basic tenet of Xy (and I would argue that it is the most basic tenet of Xy) is due to the incarnational nature of God. God so desires a relationship with us that God became incarnate -- became one of us -- thereby reconciling us to God's Self. That reconciliation of humanity to God imparts grace. We Xians believe that act of reconciliation to be the single greatest act of God in humanity. It's Biblical. Christ is quoted as saying so. Paul supports it. It is congruent with OT theology about God's acts of salvation.

Biblically speaking, there exist more than one god, because the scriptures come to us from more than one cultural source. But the Bible also makes it clear, as the scriptures were redacted by the Hebrew culture, that we are to worship YHWH only (who became incarnate for us, according to Xians).

 

[uss_bigd]

It's not the Biblical verses that are "wrong." The issue is interpretation of Biblical content. It is significant for them to have one essence, which can and has been Biblically explained on several occasions.

The whole reason why the Trinity is a basic tenet of Xy (and I would argue that it is the most basic tenet of Xy) is due to the incarnational nature of God. God so desires a relationship with us that God became incarnate -- became one of us -- thereby reconciling us to God's Self. That reconciliation of humanity to God imparts grace. We Xians believe that act of reconciliation to be the single greatest act of God in humanity. It's Biblical. Christ is quoted as saying so. Paul supports it. It is congruent with OT theology about God's acts of salvation.

Biblically speaking, there exist more than one god, because the scriptures come to us from more than one cultural source. But the Bible also makes it clear, as the scriptures were redacted by the Hebrew culture, that we are to worship YHWH only (who became incarnate for us, according to Xians).

It is not enought that you mention that 'it is significant and discussed in numerrous occassions. you have to biblically prove that the trinity is significant. besides, this is a biblical debate.

Are you saying interpreted the verse incorrectly? how so? and what is the correct interpretation then?

you said "one cultural source'? explain that biblically.


this is a biblical debate, i wish to see verses. thank you!

 

[uss_bigd]

The words "essence" and "substance" as used in the Creeds to describe God come from Greek philosophy. At the time the Nicene Creed was written, most of the educated Christians were schooled in Greek thought and were merely to trying to understand the nature of God in terms that they were familiar with. The Bible clearly states that Jesus and His Father are "one" but it doesn't say they are "one essence." In John 17, when Christ offers His great intercessory prayer to His Father, He asks that His followers may all be "one, even as we are one." Unless it was His desire that we all be absorbed into the essence of the Trinity, which doesn't seem very likely to me, He was referring to a oneness or unity of will and purpose. He and His Father are definitely "one" but not "one essence."

:yes::yes::yes:

 

[Michel07]

Gen 1 , 26
Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Isaiah 6, 3

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts!.

Isaiah 48, 16
Come near to me and hear this!
Not from the beginning did I speak it in secret;
" Now the Lord, God has sent me,
and his spirit.

Matthew 28, 19

Go ,therefore, and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father,and of the Son, and of the
holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all
that I have commanded you. And behold,
I am with you always until the end of the age.

1 John 5, 7

So, there are three that testify,





I have posted these scriptures elsewhere to indicate a case can be made for the Trinity as being Biblical. More examples could probably be found but may not be necessary. I think the biggest problem arises when people can't quite understand how it can be and therefore it must be false rather than accepting the possibility of their own lack of understanding. We christians take much by faith but if we didn't or could not, we would have to rely on our own logic to accept anything which is exactly how many approach the question of the Holy Trinity. We can't answer some pretty basic questions about the ' raison d'etre' of most of existence except by faith and now we are supposed to be able to understand the complete nature of the architect of existence? I think not. ( please do not paraphrase me in that last sentence haha).
I believe God has put so much before us in the world and universe to discover as a gift to us. But nothing greater than Himself and if we can admit we don't know everything about creation we should be able to admit we don't know everything about Creator.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello, Michel.

Gen 1 , 26
Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

But traditional Christianity does not even believe that God has an image, does it?

Isaiah 6, 3

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts!

I'm confused as to how this doctrine refers to a triune God.

Isaiah 48, 16
Come near to me and hear this!
Not from the beginning did I speak it in secret;
" Now the Lord, God has sent me,
and his spirit.

Matthew 28, 19

Go ,therefore, and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father,and of the Son, and of the
holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all
that I have commanded you. And behold,
I am with you always until the end of the age.

1 John 5, 7

So, there are three that testify,

I can see how these scriptures all testify as to a Godhead comprised of three distinct beings. But where do they describe God as "one essence"?

 

[Michel07]

Hello, Michel.

But traditional Christianity does not even believe that God has an image, does it?

I'm confused as to how this doctrine refers to a triune God.

I can see how these scriptures all testify as to a Godhead comprised of three distinct beings. But where do they describe God as "one essence"?

That I believe is referred to throughout scripture as there is One God.I don't like to get simplistic because it isn't but as I mentioned elsewhere St. Patrick taught of the Trinity by holding up a three leaf clover and saying It's something like that. The three leaves are part of one stem.

 

[Katzpur]

That I believe is referred to throughout scripture as there is One God.I don't like to get simplistic because it isn't but as I mentioned elsewhere St. Patrick taught of the Trinity by holding up a three leaf clover and saying It's something like that. The three leaves are part of one stem.

Thanks, Michel. I can see St. Patrick's analogy as describing the Godhead of the Bible. To me, the problem lies with the word "essence." What do you see God's essence as being?

 

[Michel07]

Thanks, Michel. I can see St. Patrick's analogy as describing the Godhead of the Bible. To me, the problem lies with the word "essence." What do you see God's essence as being?

God's essence I think is precisely that, His 'Being'.

 

[Starfish]

The trinity satisfies the concept that there is ONE god, but it doesn't explain all the many scriptures that indicate that The Father and Christ are separate beings. Any 6-year-old would assume that Jesus wasn't praying to himself and might laugh at anyone who thought he was.
I've always wondered why the trinitarians focus on a lesser amount of verses that sound like The Father, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one, and ignore the greater amount of scriptures that sound otherwise.
Especially when there's a logical explanation that satisfies ALL the scriptures.

They are separate beings, yet ONE in purpose and mission. If you hear from one, you've heard from them all. One represents the others. They are totally united; just as I am united with my husband. Yet we, and they, are separate beings. Totally logical, yet rejected by mainstream Christianity. Why is that?

 

[Michel07]

The trinity satisfies the concept that there is ONE god, but it doesn't explain all the many scriptures that indicate that The Father and Christ are separate beings. Any 6-year-old would assume that Jesus wasn't praying to himself and might laugh at anyone who thought he was.
I've always wondered why the trinitarians focus on a lesser amount of verses that sound like The Father, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one, and ignore the greater amount of scriptures that sound otherwise.
Especially when there's a logical explanation that satisfies ALL the scriptures.

They are separate beings, yet ONE in purpose and mission. If you hear from one, you've heard from them all. One represents the others. They are totally united; just as I am united with my husband. Yet we, and they, are separate beings. Totally logical, yet rejected by mainstream Christianity. Why is that?

We should not forget that Jesus also said " If you have seen me you have seen the Father."
Maybe I don't need to fully understand. I still believe in the mysteries of God, Lord knows I sure don't understand everything that goes on in this world.

 

[uss_bigd]

That I believe is referred to throughout scripture as there is One God.

I am sorry my friend but what you are saying is not true.

Psalms 82:1
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods'

I do not think this verse is subject to interpretation, there is more than one God!

I don't like to get simplistic because it isn't but as I mentioned elsewhere St. Patrick taught of the Trinity by holding up a three leaf clover and saying It's something like that. The three leaves are part of one stem.

St. Patrick? is he biblical? if he coined the trinity then it just authenticates that the trinity is not biblical. coz their is no St. Patrick in the bible.

be carefull not to fall in this verse

Colossians 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

 

[Michel07]

I am sorry my friend but what you are saying is not true.

Psalms 82:1
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods'

I do not think this verse is subject to interpretation, there is more than one God!



St. Patrick? is he biblical? if he coined the trinity then it just authenticates that the trinity is not biblical. coz their is no St. Patrick in the bible.

be carefull not to fall in this verse

Colossians 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

"There are also many other things that Jesus did, but If these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." John 21, 24-25