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Featured Christians! If Jesus is NOT God, how do you explain Luke:18:19?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Oeste, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    This is my first authored thread on Religious Forums, and I'd like to start out on the Trinity and turn a frequent question back at our anti-Trinitarian friends.

    Let's take a look at the verse in question:

    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. (Luke 18:19)

    For our Arian/Unitarian friends this appears to be one of their favorite "proof-texts" against the Trinity, but for me it opens a quandary for them. In fact, it appear they argue some much against the Trinity that, IMO, they don't exactly see what they are arguing for.

    As Christians we believe Christ died for our sins (except, apparently JW's, who believe he only died for Adam). But even here the quandary still remains.

    If Jesus is saying he is no good, how did a no good Jesus die for your sins? How did he die for Adam's?

    Is Jesus "kind of good", "sort of good", "pretty good", or just "not all that bad"?

    If Jesus is not God and only God is good, then obviously Jesus wasn't good enough. And if Jesus wasn't good enough, then he couldn't have possibly died for your sins, Adam's sin, or even his own.

    I'm interested in how non-Trinitarian Christians answer what appears to be a prized "proof text" theological dilemma.
     
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  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not trinitarian but I do believe Jesus is God. You're right. Jesus was good and was looking for faith. If the young ruler saw that Jesus was good; then what else could he see?

    Jesus also called Himself the "Good Shepherd". (Granted it is a different Greek word than the one translated in Luke 18:19) But still, it's interesting that Jesus would call Himself "Good" at all if He is not God.

    Especially in light of Psalms 23 which makes it pretty obvious that Jehovah is the real good Shepherd. Which opens up another quandary. If Jehovah is our Shepherd(Psalm 23) and whoever is the Good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep (John 10:11) then how is Jesus not Jehovah? This actually explains one of the biggest reasons Arianists have to deny the Divinity of Jesus. Their big reason is that God couldn't really die and furthermore they say that God had no reason to come in the flesh. But, if God is really the good Shepherd that He implies He is in Psalm 23 and if the Good Shepherd gives His life for the Sheep; then it's all explained. God had to come in the flesh because He cannot die in His Divine nature. He could only die in the flesh. So He did come in the flesh.
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Congratulations on your first OP.

    Its usually not helpful to weigh up one verse in isolation and Luke 18:19 alone doesn't make the strongest case of non-Trinitarians.

    Luke 18:19 Commentaries: And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

    However combined with other verses, Jesus being the physical incarnation of God can be reasonably discounted.

    For example:

    1 John 4:12
    "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

    Mark 13:32
    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    1 KIngs 8:27
    But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    Malachi 3:6
    For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    So biblical scripture could imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

    I believe it makes more sense to consider Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

    Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
    "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

    John 5:19
    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    John 8:28
    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Often John 1:1, 1:3, and 1:14 are brought out as the supposed trump card for the Trinitarians but the use of the Greek work logos can mean a mediator between God and man.

    Philo an Hellenized Jew who live near the time of Christ used the word logos in this manner.

    Philo - Wikipedia
     
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  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, you just aren't seeing how Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He's the manifestation of God. A good analogy is when an author writes himself into his own story.
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I agree that Jesus is a Manifestation of God. However, theologically it makes more sense to see Him has a spiritual rather than a physical manifestation.

    The analogy of the author including Himself in the story is a useful one. Then we need to ask ourselves who wrote the gospels.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations on posting your first thread. This is a very important topic.

    It seems to me that the plain meaning of that verse is that Jesus is not as good as God. I certainly do not think it means that Jesus is not good, but rather Jesus is saying that relative to God I am as nothing, thus not good... That is Jesus’ way of humbling Himself before God.

    Jesus had more than one station. In one station Jesus spoke as God, with the Voice of God; in another station Jesus spoke as a Messenger of God, and in a third station Jesus spoke as a Servant of God, a state of utter servitude. In this state, Jesus considered Himself as utterly effaced and non-existent compared to God. That would explain why Jesus said “"No one is good--except God alone.”
    Jesus was good, as good as God, because Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God... As such, Jesus perfectly manifested the Attributes of God, so Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

    As a Messenger of God, what Jesus was “sent” by God with a message to reveal to humanity and what Jesus revealed was identical with the Will of God Himself.

    John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

    John 7:28-29 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

    However, as a Servant of God, Jesus subjugated Himself to God and testified that there is no other God but God. That is one reason why, according to my beliefs, Jesus cannot be God incarnate (the fullness of God bodily). The other reason is because God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man, since God’s intrinsic nature is immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. Jesus knows God, but how He knows God is not something our human minds can grasp.

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
     
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  7. Ishmael

    Ishmael Member

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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the forum. :)
    That looks interesting but it is is awfully long to read. Can you give us a synopsis?
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yeshua didn't die for people's sins, we made him into a sin offering (Isaiah 53:10); we've then been cut off for doing so (Zechariah 11), and God will destroy those who say he died for them (Revelation 16:6)...

    Jude 1:11 Woe to them! For they went in the way of Cain (killed their brother), and ran riotously in the error of Balaam (said God required sacrifice (Micah 6:5-8)) for hire, and perished in Korah's rebellion (stood against God).

    We've been systematically lied to by the Pharisees John, Paul, and Simon, and people don't have the wisdom to recognize the contradictions.
    Tho Yeshua was an avatar of the Lord, the Most High is the only thing pure, as it is the Source of reality; anything down here is automatically corruptible, as here is near Hell.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Funny, I have never used that particular scripture in relation to disproving the trinity...there are much better ones. Matthew 20:23; John 1:18; John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 1:1.....etc.

    Nothing like starting off a discussion with a false premise. How can you get this so wrong when you must have talked about this with JW's to make this assumption? Perhaps you misunderstood them....or perhaps you didn't really listen to them?

    On one occasion with his apostles, the mother of the sons of Zebedee, (James and John) asked for special privileges in the Kingdom at their behest...but what was Jesus' response?

    He said...."whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave. 28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.(Matthew 20:26-28)

    Jesus' life was given as a ransom (the sum paid to release a captive) in exchange for many...not just one.

    Adam died for his own sin, but what he passed onto his children was an inheritance that none of them wanted but which none of them could avoid....sin and death. (Romans 5:12) The only way to ransom those now in captivity to sin and death was to pay the price. Adam lost perfect sinless life for all of his children, and only a sinless life given in exchange, could cancel the debt.


    Is that what Jesus said? He basically balked at being called "good" in the superlative sense because he said only his Father can have that designation attributed to him.

    If Jesus was God, then his statement makes no sense. How can only God be good and Jesus say that he is not to be called good on that level? If Jesus is God, then God is not good. How ridiculous! :confused:

    If Jesus wasn't good enough then he can't be God.....I think your reasoning is rather skewed....sorry.
     
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  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It's like this:

    1. There is a creator
    2. There is a savior
    3. There is the creator's spirit

    1. The creator told his chosen people in the OT (example) Do not kill. His people did not listen

    2. When people did not listen, god told them they needed to kill an animal to give to god, so he can forgive them. (Mind you: they give an animal up to god)

    3. Hundreds of years later, god said: Enough of this! I said. I said. I said. They won't listen.

    So, I'll take my dictations (do not kill) and make it incarnate. This Law of mind (DNK) will walk along the people and tell them personally about me. I will name him their savior; their god; their intermediary to me. So, through them, they can come to me, the creator.

    Jesus doesnot become the creator, he becomes a reflection of his creator. Because of his status, people refer to him as lord and god (cultural thing; just as romans were referred to as gods). No one mistook jesus as being his creator. no one.

    4. So one day, DNK made flesh walked along the people, teaching people his creator's law (DNK), telling his disciples about his creator's laws. Jesus, the DNK incarnation, prayed to his creator very intensely to help the people listen to what the creator has to say.

    5. The creator said....let their be light. Therefore, came a savior by miracle. This savior, after praying how he could help people come to the creator, was told that in order for people to be saved (since they wont listen to the law of Moses rather than their own jewish laws of customs)

    I will have my law/DNK/incarnation die on the cross to show them as an example they are dead to the law and rise through christ to me, the creator. (aka, they no longer need to obey the law but to follow these two laws that the law of moses sums up: love thy neighbor and love thy creator. All laws are summed up on these two phrases. (try it out)

    Now remember. The savior is still an incarnation of god's law, DNK. When he dies on the cross, the savior not the creator, all people are told to follow christ (acts) in order to know the creator. God does not refer to specifically the creator; its a title or rank of authority. Same as Lord and Messiah.

    Only one person is the creator. Jesus is not one of them.

    a. The father and I are one (the creator and the savior share the same purpose as father and son)

    b. Jesus is an visible image of an invisible god: Jesus is the son of god.

    Jesus is saying the creation is not good as the creator is. He is separating his own fleshly goodness with that of the creator. Unless you believe you are good-like and as god-you are not good nor is jesus or anyone else who is not the creator.

    That is what he meant.

    It doesn't mean jesus is not god. It means he is differientating himself from his creator.

    As for you believing jesus is god, that is OKAY. It's not the end of the world. I wrote in another post of thousands on the trinity that trinitarians cannot tell the difference between source/creator and image/son.

    They are so closely related that, in English, yes, you can refer to them as one. But you need more than one person to combine them as one.

    Also, trinitarian means three in one unit not three people are each other.

    Creator, Spirit, and Savior are all one unit. Creator first. Savior second. People third. Spirit working between them.

    However you see it is fine. Both sides are in the bible. It depends on the reader. Scripture wasnt written in english. Its been translated.
     
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  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    It's the difference between the Orthodox "image" and the image of the "Word". Without the non Canon books to help create the message of the Spirit (capital S), the Orthodox rely on the OT to explain the Word (from the Father/God).

    It was through Jesus that the (Holy) Spirit spoke for the first time directly to man. It entered him making him Christ, no longer Jesus, a born flesh. The Jews never had this. The scriptures rejected by the early catholics in favor of the OT's fleshly laws to explain the Word is confusing the difference in spirit and flesh.

    The Spirit didn't write the OT. It did the Gospels, Canon and non Canon. Marcion knew this when he created the first Canon. Those priests whom Jesus refutes merely reinstituted themselves as celestial authority. This was the division Paul showed us at the Incident at Antioch and Galatians 1 and 2.

    Tertullian taught the Trinity idea 2 centuries after Jesus left. It's a catholic teaching.

    The Father in perfect needs nothing. He relies on nothing. He can do anything.

    "Therefore, obey me, my brothers. Understand what the great light is. The Father does not need me. For a father does not need a son, but it is the son who needs the father. To him I am going, for the Father of the Son is not in need of you.- Secret James

    We especially don't need priests. We need understanding (truth) which is what the Spirit is, and what was in Jesus for the first time.

    Jesus was a mouthpiece of the Word. Nothing more. He became the Son of God to teach us how to become "sons of God" by becoming a Christ. John 1.
     
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  13. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    I was a just a man
    I did what I can
    We were surpressed
    So I tried
    Then I died
    My Sins are speaking the truth
    Now open your eyes and look
    For I was smart
    I knew what was real
    I feel
    I will never bow down and kneel
     
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  14. Ishmael

    Ishmael Member

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    Startling. Thank you for sharing. Here are links to messages which I pray will never lead astray:

    Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.

    Lion of Judah - Wikipedia

    Son of man (Christianity) - Wikipedia

    Second Coming - Wikipedia

    Daniel 12:1 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

    May the firm knowledge of our redeemer's speedy return properly prepare us with Grace, Hope & Love, even to our enemies in times of tribulation, so that the second death has no power over us.

    Bible Search: second death

    Till then,

    Grace and peace be multiplied to you all through the knowledge of God and of Yehoshua the Messiah of Nazareth, our Lord.
     
  15. Tammie

    Tammie Member

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    Ishmael said:
    May the firm knowledge of our redeemer's speedy return properly prepare us with Grace, Hope & Love, even to our enemies in times of tribulation, so that the second death has no power over us.

    I do not believe that anyone has put it better than you on this particular topic. :)
     
  16. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    For humanity shall find grace in their own rewards of wisdom when acceptance of our own stupidity and ignorance of divide shall crumble untruths into the sea to be forgotten.
    Be gone from these lands the ignorance of divide and stupidity for thy thoughts shall be as one and nobody shall kneel before I , as I will not kneel to others for I are we and we as one family is not I or you it is us and not me.
     
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    He had to be physical to be the sacrifice for sins.
     
  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That is true, but flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:50
     
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