Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So why does CG keep asking Baha'is about Hinduism?
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Christianity vs Baha'i
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
I believe he was making a point, but you'll have to ask him. Often when I try to make a point in that way it goes right over the head of the person I'm trying to make it to.So what does CG keep asking Baha'is about Hinduism?
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
So, lets see what point @CG Didymus was trying to make.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You make the claim that Baha'u'llah uses the same terminology just interprets it differently.
So I ask you, what was that terminology that you think is the same.
You say "return and cycle"?
Yes, now that he has said what that supposed "terminology" is, definitely please chime in.
Do you read all the posts or just the ones sent to you? I hope now you can see that it was Investigate Truth that made a claim about Baha'u'llah giving a different, which for Baha'is means the "true" interpretation. In other words, Baha'u'llah believes Hindus are wrong about what they believe about reincarnation.
Yes, the point is Baha'is do interpret other religions in a way to make their beliefs, the Baha'i beliefs, the true ones, and the beliefs held by the other religions wrong... very often they say the people misinterpreted the things said in their own Scriptures. Is it? Is it a misinterpretation or is reincarnation very clearly stated in Hindu Scriptures? If so, then why would Baha'u'llah deny it and blame Hindus for wrongly interpreting their own Scriptures?
The point is Baha'is say lots of stuff. If it is from Baha'u'llah that quote him. Quote how he says that Krishna and Hinduism are true... just not some of the things that Hindus believe. Small things? Not a big deal. Big things, like reincarnation? That is a big deal. Oh, and do Baha'is believe in all the incarnations of Vishnu or just Krishna? And if not the others, why Krishna?
Again, Baha'is try to have it both ways. They say they believe in all major religions, then tell us about all the things that they don't believe about those other religions. At least the Born-Again Christians tell you right out... They don't believe in any of the other religions, except for Judaism.
So what do we know about the Hindu belief about reincarnation? Should I ask you and Baha'u'llah or a Hindu? Of course a Hindu. But you made the claim about the terminology, and you give me two words? Return and cycle. Okay, I guess. That is supposed to explain it to me? You're saying Hindus use those two words and so does Baha'u'llah... but he interprets them differently? Therefore, he is right and Hindus are wrong? Unfortunately, that, to me, is a problem. Baha'is can say all religions are one, but they really mean they are one when redefined and reinterpreted to fit Baha'i beliefs.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I read some posts for which I get a notification, but not all of them...
Baha'u'llah did not write about Hinduism or reincarnation.
However, Baha'u'llah wrote about what happens to our soul and its survival after death.
“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156
“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 159
“Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world….” Gleanings, p. 156
If Baha'is believe what Baha'ul'lah wrote, then we have to believe that Hindus are wrong about reincarnation, since the two beliefs are contradictory. In short, Baha'is believe that the soul continues to progress forever in the spiritual world whereas Hindus believe that the soul returns to this world and reincarnates in another body and thereby continues to progress spiritually.
Both beliefs cannot be true, because the beliefs are contradictory.
Shoghi Effendi says it best, as to how a Baha'i is to see legitimate Faiths of the past;
".... The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá’u’lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá’u’lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.... "
It comes down to what we choose to beleive is from God, or is from our own selves.
As far as reincarnation is concerned, it would be a doctrine that is entered under this comment,
"... distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions...."
No one offers that we will not be challenged in our faith, if we want a lasting unity.
It all changes when we teach our children new ways and it also proves that Truth is Relative.
I always consider there are many people from a Hindu background that now teach a new meaning about the return of spiritual attributes and that the soul moves on to other worlds of God.
Regards Tony
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
It is not through the teaching of Jesus Christ that people become righteous. It is through repentance, and the indwelling Holy Spirit that people become righteous. Jesus' teaching prepares a person for the coming of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, becomes the teacher once he indwells.
Scripture teaches that the body of Jesus Christ was raised as a spiritual body. Jesus Christ showed himself in his new body to demonstrate the reality of the bodily resurrection. He showed himself to the twelve, and upward of five hundred witnesses on one occasion.
Not only is it very clearly stated in a vast array of Hindu scriptures, but thousands of Hindu sages throughout the years, through their meditations, past life memories, etc. have reiterated it, having proved it to themselves. I know of no current Guru who would deny it. Not only that but the practitioners practice it, in unseen ways, like how the funerals are done, training for death, and praying to be born somewhere, or even meeting with your prospective new parents, before you lose the current body. So it's woven right into the daily practice.
And yet, despite all this cumulative personal experience by millions of adherents, we still don't claim it as truth, but simply simply say, "It is our belief."
(I thought the point with that one question you were trying to make was that IT knows nothing of Hinduism, as he didn't even know the Sanskrit term for reincarnation, a very basic Hindu word, and he proved that. But hey, you can't win them all, lol)
As long as folks speak of my faith out of complete ignorance, I'll be responding.
Carry on.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was not aware that Christians believe that Jesus Christ was raised as a spiritual body. I thought Christians all believe that the miracle is that His physical body was raised from the dead. I can believe that Jesus Christ showed himself in his new *spiritual body* to demonstrate the reality that we will all live forever in a spiritual body, because that is what I believe will happen to everyone after their physical body dies.
“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
That is the Word made Flesh, Jesus as Christ is the embodiment of the Word, Jesus lived the Word, the Word is the Essence of the Spirit. The Word is always enmanating from God to us.
We can reflect the Word when we are born again into the Faith given by Christ, God's Messengers.
Regards Tony
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
True. The body in resurrection is no longer a natural body.
In 1 Corinthians 15:41-44 it says, 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.'
One area of difference between us appears to be the Holy Spirit, or Comforter, because the scriptures clearly indicate that the Holy Spirit has no body. The natural resting place of the Comforter is in the heart of man.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I agree with much of what you say, but I wonder why you see the need for more than one Christ. To suggest such a thing is to dethrone Jesus Christ in favour of a false pretender. To a Christian, Jesus Christ is incorruptible and alive. His chosen spiritual teacher is the Holy Spirit, a Spirit that is universally available to those who have faith.
That is why Jesus shows us how the Holy Spirit is connected via the Virgin Birth.
We are born of the Human Spirit given at conception.
Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, which is eternal, the First and the Last.
There is now much written on this, more than Jesus could tells us, but has now told us.
The Mesengers of God, who are all the Names of God, are the First Cause, they are the Suns that give us light and life.
If we look at our universe we can see that God has created many Sun's, a number we can not compute.
There is now a creation story available that tells it in great detail, it is an amazing read and it shows us how limited our minds are and have confined God to our own limits.
You may like to have a read.
Tablet of the Universe
So to me Jesus as Christ is all the Messengers. To understand this, another Message given by Christ is needed.
Regards Tony
Jesus is incorruptible and alive in me, a diffent frame of reference, to me and many more millions now, does not take away from Jesus, it may indeed embrace what Jesus wanted us to know, that He was Christ, just as Peter offered and it was the knowledge that Jesus was Christ, that the Church was to be built upon.
John 14:2 is a great reflection;
"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
It stands to reason that God returns the Holy Spirit in another person, in another Name. Jesus offered He would come with a New Name. Christ means 'Annointed One'
Abraham showed us that Annointment was obedience.
Moses showed us Annointment was submission to God's Word and Law.
Jesus as the Son, showed us the Messenger is the Annointed Word, all we can know about God and we must turn to the Messenger.
When Christianity made a doctrine that made the Messenger God, Muhammad was again Annointed showing us that the Word is the Law and it is to the Word we Submit to.
All this was to prepare us for the Day of God. A day when we accept that God does as God chooses and send the Word in a Messenger, the Messenger is all we can know of God and they are the Word we must turn to, they are Christ, the Holy Spirit.
So many things to talk about, many things to consider and it is all supported in the Bible.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I know those verses and that whole chapter very well.
I am happy to hear you quote those verses and actually understand what they mean, that the body raised is not a physical body.
Of course the Holy Spirit has no body.
According to Baha'i beliefs, the Comforter is the Holy Spirit since it is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit when He sent Jesus, and Jesus bestowed the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles.
Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108
Baha'is also believe that the Comforter is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Since God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus and Jesus bestowed the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles Jesus is called the Comforter.
Then later God sent the Holy Spirit again in Jesus' name.
I believe that in the following verses Comforter and Spirit of truth are referring to Baha’u’llah:
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;
John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus, witnessed Jesus, and glorified Jesus:
“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I am open to correction, but I understand that Jesus was born through a miraculous conception. He lived under the law until he was about thirty. Only then did he receive the Holy Spirit, which was sent from above by his Father.
The same Holy Spirit that descended on Jesus at baptism was sent to the disciples at Pentecost. That same Spirit is available now to all who would repent and believe. The difference between Jesus and his disciples is to be reckoned in sinfulness and faith. Jesus was sinless, and his faith was unshakeable. This meant that the Holy Spirit was not given by 'measure'. Nothing blocked or interrupted the work of the Father in the Son.
Sinlessness cannot be claimed of anyone apart from Jesus Christ; even the apostles admitted that they were working towards the perfection of Christ. This means that Baha'u'llah and all other religious leaders fall short of the glory of God. Even with the Holy Spirit working within them, they do not reach the perfect and sinless condition of Christ.
According to the scriptures, Christ is 'Immanuel', or 'God with us'.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
How can you believe that the Holy Spirit [John 14:26] is brought by a man? Jesus did not bring the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a man, and the Holy Spirit was sent to him by the Father.
At Pentecost, the Father sent the Spirit, through the risen Lord, to the disciples.
'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.' [Ephesians 4:6]
It is, therefore, impossible for a man, such as Baha'u'llah to claim to bring the Holy Spirit. Had he been the Messiah, he would have been the one sinless Son of God. As already shown, only one man fits all the Hebrew prophecy of the 'suffering servant'.
Do you believe that you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you? [A pertinent question in this discussion!]
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Do you think we should live under the law [the covenant delivered by Moses] or by faith [like Abraham]? Or do you think we can live under both?
I have found that the story of the time when the Messenger makes known as to who they are, is through stories deep in Metephor.
Do you think Moses did not know what he was before the Story of the Burning Bush?
Do you think Jesus did not know what was to happen before the story of the Dove at Baptisim? I see the stories are for us to accept that God has given the Message to them.
We also have the same WITH Muhammad and the Angel Gabriel in the cave. That story is available.
In this age we have a lot more detail recoded, thus is how the Bab said He was made aware is under spoiler below.
"The spirit of prayer which animates My soul is the direct consequence of a dream which I had in the year before the declaration of My Mission. In My vision I saw the head of the Imam Husayn, the Siyyidu'sh-Shuhada', which was hanging upon a tree. Drops of blood dripped profusely from His lacerated throat. With feelings of unsurpassed delight, I approached that tree and, stretching forth My hands, gathered a few drops of that sacred blood, and drank them devoutly. When I awoke, I felt that the Spirit of God had permeated and taken possession of My soul. My heart was thrilled with the joy of His Divine presence, and the mysteries of His Revelation were unfolded before My eyes in all their glory."
Baha'u'llah has recorded it in this way, in great detail, also under spoiler;
During the days I lay in the prison of Ṭihrán, though the galling weight of the chains and the stench-filled air allowed Me but little sleep, still in those infrequent moments of slumber I felt as if something flowed from the crown of My head over My breast, even as a mighty torrent that precipitateth itself upon the earth from the summit of a lofty mountain. Every limb of My body would, as a result, be set afire. At such moments My tongue recited what no man could bear to hear.[7]
One night, in a dream, these exalted words were heard on every side: “Verily, We shall render Thee victorious by Thyself and by Thy Pen. Grieve Thou not for that which hath befallen Thee, neither be Thou afraid, for Thou art in safety. Erelong will God raise up the treasures of the earth—men who will aid Thee through Thyself and through Thy Name, wherewith God hath revived the hearts of such as have recognized Him.”[8]
While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden—the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord—suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful. Betwixt earth and heaven she was raising a call which captivated the hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both My inward and outer being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God’s honoured servants.
Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in heaven and all who are on earth, saying: By God! This is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand. This is the Mystery of God and His Treasure, the Cause of God and His glory unto all who are in the kingdoms of Revelation and of creation, if ye be of them that perceive. This is He Whose Presence is the ardent desire of the denizens of the Realm of eternity, and of them that dwell within the Tabernacle of glory, and yet from His Beauty do ye turn aside.[9]
One night, in a dream, these exalted words were heard on every side: “Verily, We shall render Thee victorious by Thyself and by Thy Pen. Grieve Thou not for that which hath befallen Thee, neither be Thou afraid, for Thou art in safety. Erelong will God raise up the treasures of the earth—men who will aid Thee through Thyself and through Thy Name, wherewith God hath revived the hearts of such as have recognized Him.”[8]
While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden—the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord—suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful. Betwixt earth and heaven she was raising a call which captivated the hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both My inward and outer being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God’s honoured servants.
Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in heaven and all who are on earth, saying: By God! This is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand. This is the Mystery of God and His Treasure, the Cause of God and His glory unto all who are in the kingdoms of Revelation and of creation, if ye be of them that perceive. This is He Whose Presence is the ardent desire of the denizens of the Realm of eternity, and of them that dwell within the Tabernacle of glory, and yet from His Beauty do ye turn aside.[9]
There is so much to consider, Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay, did Hindus misinterpret something in their Scriptures or do their Scriptures clearly spell out what is meant by reincarnation? I don't think it is a misinterpretation. Just like I don't think the resurrection of Jesus was misinterpreted by the early Christians. I think the gospel writers really believed Jesus had come back to life.
Since you and me don't necessarily believe that, then how do we explain it? If a Baha'i says that the gospel story was not literal but symbolic and mistakenly taken as literal, I don't agree. If it didn't happen but the gospel writers said it did happen then they are liars and frauds. If it did happen, and the NT is absolutely true, then most all of us are in big trouble and the Baha'i Faith is false. You got any other ideas?