Christianity in decline

[Samael_Khan]

Yep

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

This verse confirms what you say that he had weaknesses and was tempted. But it also says didn't sin.

My concern with the sinlessness aspect is that if you believed that he sinned how can he be your saviour? And what is the point of even being a christian then?

 

[Samael_Khan]

I guess I would just have to pick and choose what to believe

Convenient

 

[Samael_Khan]

Its in there somewhere

Well the act was considered a sin, not the thought or feeling, so the action was condemned in the OT by God.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I have no concern about Jesus' sins one way or another. To me, it's an irrelevant question.

Jesus, now, is a character in a story intended to convey to mankind a revelation, and a promise. That revelation and promise is embodied by Jesus as the "Christ". "Christ" being the the divine spirit of God as it exists within us all, as love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity. Perfection is not a part of God that we humans can claim to possess. If Jesus became sinless as the Christ, so be it (but I doubt it). In any case, it's irrelevant to me, as I cannot aspire to that state.

Your scriptures say he was sinless:

10 Bible verses about Jesus Christ, Sinlessness

It isn't relevent in order for you to aspire to the state of Jesus. It is relevent in order for you to be saved according to the book. The sacrificial lamb has to be unblemished in order to be worthy.

Also, if you believe Jesus to just be a character in a story, why do you care about being a christian?

 

[Altfish]

I think one reason why Christianity is in decline in the U.S.A. is because it condemns homosexuality. I think the church really needs to address that during sermon.

.

Wouldn't argue that is one reason, but may I add some more

1. Anti-abortion in all cases
2. Too many support the likes of Trump
3. They oppose universal healthcare
4. Access to internet, people can explore other views and question their preachers

I could go on...

 

[Nimos]

I think one reason why Christianity is in decline in the U.S.A. is because it condemns homosexuality. I think the church really needs to address that during sermon.

As far as JC saying homosexuality is bad, well I think he made a mistake ha ha. I mean his life was cut short. Who knows what he would've said down the road. I guess if anybody would've seen they were wrong it would've been him. It is a possibility. Who knows maybe Jesus was in the closet and was struggling like many are today. Surely we can cut JC a little slack on that notion alone. I'm not saying JC laid with a man but maybe he had desires and repressed them. Who's to say? Anyway, I doubt a priest giving a sermon would say that. He'd probably get fired. So I'm not exactly sure how the church would wiggle out of that one and I'm not even sure if they would want to unfortunately. No skin off my back I don't even go to church.

Another reason I think is because some people may have a hard time excepting Jesus Christ as our savior. What helped me get closer to him was to ponder who he is and why he came here. I got creative with my thinking about him and broadened my understanding of him outside of religious texts. It took me a very long time. I didn't have to think about him all the time, maybe here and there but I always kept him in my pocket at least. Most importantly for me now is to stay humble when I speak of how he works in my life. I had to have fun with religion to make it work. I had to always remember that religion and metaphors go hand in hand and that my understanding was the most important, not even ol' JC's.

I think there's some great things to be learned from the Bible and it would've been foolish for me to dismiss it for these two reasons.

I don't think the issue is Jesus or God really, but more in regards to how people interpret the texts. Which as usually seem to be rather loosely or whatever seems to fit.

If we are to believe the OT, I think one would have to be a bit naive to not accept that God is not fond of homosexsuals, especially men, not sure about women.

Jesus on the other hand doesn't talk about it at all, the closest one can come to it being the case as far as I know, is that Jesus reference the law and say that nothing should be changed. He also uses an example from the law and that it should be followed as God commanded. So I think one could make an argument that Jesus is not for homosexuality based on him being in support of the law and there not being any particular reason to why Jesus would support the whole law, except the part about homosexsuality.

Well that is what it is, where the problems occur is not especially with Jesus or God, its about the double standard of how the religious texts are interpret.

Because if the law is not longer in effect as many Christians say it ain't, then clearly the law about homosexuality is not longer in effect either. But it doesn't really seem to work that way, because some of the laws like you can't eat certain things, that is clearly not effect anymore. And then you have laws that are just ignored, like parents having to kill their children if they curse them, which is the very example Jesus uses himself. But that one we ignore. We also don't have to kill homosexuals if they are together as a man and a women, because that part of the law is not in effect either. But they can't be married either, because something in the bible say that it should be between a man and a women.

So adding it all together it is a huge mess of "I think it should be like this.... because", it is not the least consistent in regards to the bible, Jesus and God. It is purely humans own personal opinions about what they think it should be, nothing to do with Jesus or God.

 

[eik]

Jesus never claimed that homosexuality was wrong

He did for he said: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, ... away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" Matt 5:18

and he also said

"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" Matt 5:19

, or that he was God, or that he never made mistakes. Jesus was a Jew, and Jews, then as now, do not believe that non-Jews need to convert to Judaism, or follow Jewish religious laws or principals to be right with God. They believe that Jews do, but not others.

Jesus was a Jew preaching to other Jews, and so he admonished them to follow their religious traditions. But he would not have intended that admonishment for anyone else, (including modern day Christians).

Check out 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1Thessalonians 4:3. The first command on Gentile Christians Acts 15:20 included "abstinence from sexual immorality."

In short the Jewish moral law applies in toto to all Christians of any cultural background.

BTW the decline in Christianity is due to the hypocrisy of its "self-professing adherents." No-one likes a hypocrite but many would-be "Christians" are just that. One of the problems with Christianity being so widespread is that there is no final authority on earth able to call out people people for falsely calling themselves "Christians." That's not to say that individual churches don't, but too much of the time churches are more interested in philosophical disagreeements over esoteric things such as the "Trinity" or political matters, rather than elementary human morality, without which there can be no Christianity.

As Christ said "By their fruit ye will know them." Matthew 7:15-20

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't think the issue is Jesus or God really, but more in regards to how people interpret the texts. Which as usually seem to be rather loosely or whatever seems to fit.

If we are to believe the OT, I think one would have to be a bit naive to not accept that God is not fond of homosexsuals, especially men, not sure about women.

Jesus on the other hand doesn't talk about it at all, the closest one can come to it being the case as far as I know, is that Jesus reference the law and say that nothing should be changed. He also uses an example from the law and that it should be followed as God commanded. So I think one could make an argument that Jesus is not for homosexuality based on him being in support of the law and there not being any particular reason to why Jesus would support the whole law, except the part about homosexsuality.

Well that is what it is, where the problems occur is not especially with Jesus or God, its about the double standard of how the religious texts are interpret.

Because if the law is not longer in effect as many Christians say it ain't, then clearly the law about homosexuality is not longer in effect either. But it doesn't really seem to work that way, because some of the laws like you can't eat certain things, that is clearly not effect anymore. And then you have laws that are just ignored, like parents having to kill their children if they curse them, which is the very example Jesus uses himself. But that one we ignore. We also don't have to kill homosexuals if they are together as a man and a women, because that part of the law is not in effect either. But they can't be married either, because something in the bible say that it should be between a man and a women.

So adding it all together it is a huge mess of "I think it should be like this.... because", it is not the least consistent in regards to the bible, Jesus and God. It is purely humans own personal opinions about what they think it should be, nothing to do with Jesus or God.

Well that puts divine inspiration to rest.

 

[PureX]

Your scriptures say he was sinless

They are not my scriptures.

It isn't relevent in order for you to aspire to the state of Jesus. It is relevent in order for you to be saved according to the book. The sacrificial lamb has to be unblemished in order to be worthy.

That's just a religious metaphor. It can be interpreted in all kinds of ways. And I am not religious, so it's of no great significance, to me, anyway.

Your scriptures say he was sinless

They are not my scriptures.

Also, if you believe Jesus to just be a character in a story, why do you care about being a christian?

I care about the message of the story, and the promise that comes with it. As I have found them to be true.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think one reason why Christianity is in decline in the U.S.A. is because it condemns homosexuality. I think the church really needs to address that during sermon...

Historically Christianity reforms and only ever appears to go into decline. What appears to be a decline in the short term usually is actually change.

The way that we count the numbers is no longer valid. When people leave churches we can no longer count it as leaving Christianity. Yes, some people do leave, but in fact they'd return the moment they felt it was relevant to do so. Churches services have, for many, become irrelevant. They are a lot of hype to me, no pith. Its always about keeping me in my seat and then talking about me behind my back if I'm not in that seat. "Satan is keeping people from coming to church." No. Its not Satan. Maybe its hypocrisy and asking me to be a part of that hypocrisy. Maybe that's keeping me from church, but don't count me out. That is counting wrong. That is discounting the many years I've spent being Christian. I don't know how to be anything else, now do I? Not going to church is, ironically, part of being a Christian for me.

 

[PureX]

He did for he said: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, ... away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" Matt 5:18

and he also said

"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" Matt 5:19

I see nothing to suggest he was referring to homosexuality, here.

Check out 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1Thessalonians 4:3. The first command on Gentile Christians Acts 15:20 included "abstinence from sexual immorality."

Paul's opinions are not Jesus' words.

In short the Jewish moral law applies in to to all Christians of any cultural background.

I see no logical reason to make this assumption. Jews both then and now did not and do not believe Judaism applies to anyone other than a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, and remained a Jew, preaching to other Jews. There is no reason to think he felt any differently about it than any other Jew, then or now.

BTW the decline in Christianity is due to the hypocrisy of its "self-professing adherents." No-one likes a hypocrite but many would-be "Christians" are just that. One of the problems with Christianity being so widespread is that there is no final authority on earth able to call out people people for falsely calling themselves "Christians." That's not to say that individual churches don't, but too much of the time churches are more interested in philosophical disagreeements over esoteric things such as the "Trinity" or political matters, rather than elementary human morality, without which there can be no Christianity.

The problem is that churches full of arrogant, conceited men keep trying to proclaim themselves to be the "final authority" when the only authority that matters is God's divine spirit within each of us.

 

[eik]

I see nothing to suggest he was referring to homosexuality, here.
Paul's opinions are not Jesus' words.

If you don't accept Paul, you might as well renounce Christianity, because he is the interpreter of the Christian faith to the Gentiles.

As for Jesus, he was plainly referring to the whole law, including Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13.

I guess homosexuality didn't actually exist amonst the Jews.

I see no logical reason to make this assumption. Jews both then and now did not and do not believe Judaism applies to anyone other than a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, and remained a Jew, preaching to other Jews. There is no reason to think he felt any differently about it than any other Jew, then or now.
The problem is that churches full of arrogant, conceited men keep trying to proclaim themselves to be the "final authority" when the only authority that matters is God's divine spirit within each of us.

No, the final authority is not "God's divine spirit within each of us" because anyone can claim to have the Holy Spirit deceitfully, or be mistaken, especially if they are "arrogant and conceited" and pay no attention to what the bible actually says.

You seem to want to believe that Christianity can be freed from its origination in and association with the Old Testament. It can't. Such an opinion is a well known form of gnostic heresy, known as Marcionism or Antinomianism (and other variants) whereby the God of the Old Testament is made a conceptually different God to that of the New Testament.

Jews and Gentiles have the same God under Christianity, and the same moral law applies to both. Gentile Christians are said to be grafted onto the Israelite vine.

 

[King Phenomenon]

You say that here in RF where claiming to be a Christian is about as meaningful as saying that you're a one-eyed, one-horned, purple, people-eater.

Ha ha it has more meaning than that for me

 

[King Phenomenon]

I think Christianity is in decline because its message has grown stale. It's also weak. They apparently think that, just because they stand against homosexuals, that makes them a bunch of tough guys. But when it comes to standing up against the racist/capitalist/imperialist ruling class, they demonstrate that they're not so tough after all. Christianity enables tyranny, greed, and exploitation, and more people seem to be recognizing this. If the church isn't going to stand up for the people, then why should the people them?

I agree that's why I follow it my own way. I think it would've been foolish for me to disregard it completely because of the church or other people.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

This verse confirms what you say that he had weaknesses and was tempted. But it also says didn't sin.

My concern with the sinlessness aspect is that if you believed that he sinned how can he be your saviour? And what is the point of even being a christian then?

I never said he laid with a man. You asked me if he was capable of sin. I said yes

 

[King Phenomenon]

Convenient

Yes it is my friend

 

[King Phenomenon]

Wouldn't argue that is one reason, but may I add some more

1. Anti-abortion in all cases
2. Too many support the likes of Trump
3. They oppose universal healthcare
4. Access to internet, people can explore other views and question their preachers

I could go on...

I think those who oppose abortion would still be around even if there were never religious texts unfortunately

 

[King Phenomenon]

I don't think the issue is Jesus or God really, but more in regards to how people interpret the texts. Which as usually seem to be rather loosely or whatever seems to fit.

If we are to believe the OT, I think one would have to be a bit naive to not accept that God is not fond of homosexsuals, especially men, not sure about women.

Jesus on the other hand doesn't talk about it at all, the closest one can come to it being the case as far as I know, is that Jesus reference the law and say that nothing should be changed. He also uses an example from the law and that it should be followed as God commanded. So I think one could make an argument that Jesus is not for homosexuality based on him being in support of the law and there not being any particular reason to why Jesus would support the whole law, except the part about homosexsuality.

Well that is what it is, where the problems occur is not especially with Jesus or God, its about the double standard of how the religious texts are interpret.

Because if the law is not longer in effect as many Christians say it ain't, then clearly the law about homosexuality is not longer in effect either. But it doesn't really seem to work that way, because some of the laws like you can't eat certain things, that is clearly not effect anymore. And then you have laws that are just ignored, like parents having to kill their children if they curse them, which is the very example Jesus uses himself. But that one we ignore. We also don't have to kill homosexuals if they are together as a man and a women, because that part of the law is not in effect either. But they can't be married either, because something in the bible say that it should be between a man and a women.

So adding it all together it is a huge mess of "I think it should be like this.... because", it is not the least consistent in regards to the bible, Jesus and God. It is purely humans own personal opinions about what they think it should be, nothing to do with Jesus or God.

Yeah unfortunately there's some strange ideas in the Bible

 

[sun rise]

Do you believe that Jesus was sinless?

I do.

Back to the OP. What is dying mostly is traditional church-based religion.

But how people get asked the question about God results in different numbers How Many Americans Believe in God? is what I looked at.

 

[sun rise]

I think those who oppose abortion would still be around even if there were never religious texts unfortunately

I'm against abortion but against making it a crime for a woman to get one.

To me the best way to deal with abortion is to make sure pregnant women get excellent pre-natal care, that she's not forced to have one due to economic circumstances, that she get educational support, child care and everything else she needs. And it should be clear, where needed, that if she does not want to raise the child, people who want that baby can adopt.