Christianity in decline

[King Phenomenon]

He did for he said: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, ... away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" Matt 5:18

and he also said

"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" Matt 5:19


Check out 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1Thessalonians 4:3. The first command on Gentile Christians Acts 15:20 included "abstinence from sexual immorality."

In short the Jewish moral law applies in toto to all Christians of any cultural background.

BTW the decline in Christianity is due to the hypocrisy of its "self-professing adherents." No-one likes a hypocrite but many would-be "Christians" are just that. One of the problems with Christianity being so widespread is that there is no final authority on earth able to call out people people for falsely calling themselves "Christians." That's not to say that individual churches don't, but too much of the time churches are more interested in philosophical disagreeements over esoteric things such as the "Trinity" or political matters, rather than elementary human morality, without which there can be no Christianity.

As Christ said "By their fruit ye will know them." Matthew 7:15-20

I think it would have and a bad idea if I had dismissed Christianity all together based on some being hypocrites

 

[King Phenomenon]

I do.

Back to the OP. What is dying mostly is traditional church-based religion.

But how people get asked the question about God results in different numbers How Many Americans Believe in God? is what I looked at.

I think Christianity is losing followers in and out of church

 

[Nimos]

Yeah unfortunately there's some strange ideas in the Bible

Yeah some of them are a bit strange. But I also think people tend to forget that its old and the text and message probably made a whole lot more sense back then, than it does today.

I think the biggest issue is that people are trying to take some very old morale code, which were reasonable back then and trying to fit it into a modern day world, the issue is that a lot of the stuff in the bible is considered highly immoral today, so to solve it, we have to somehow make it obsolete while at the same time, not "violate" God and Jesus in the process.

 

[PureX]

If you don't accept Paul, you might as well renounce Christianity, because he is the interpreter of the Christian faith to the Gentiles.

Paul (and you) are entitled to your opinions, and so am I. The reason I am not associated with any sect of religious Christianity is exactly because they all want to interpret the story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection for me. So they can then act as the arbiter between humanity (myself) and God. A position that no man or group has the right nor ability to presume upon themselves. And a position I will not cede to anyone.

As for Jesus, he was plainly referring to the whole law, including Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13.

Jesus was a Jew telling other Jews to stick to their religion. He was not telling all humanity they must become Jewish.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Maybe he did. I think he did. But I am not a Christian.

If Jesus made errors, imagine the implications that has for Christianity as a whole and especially what implications that has in relation to God.

I think JC making a mistake wouldn't have any bad implications

 

[King Phenomenon]

Yeah some of them are a bit strange. But I also think people tend to forget that its old and the text and message probably made a whole lot more sense back then, than it does today.

I think the biggest issue is that people are trying to take some very old morale code, which were reasonable back then and trying to fit it into a modern day world, the issue is that a lot of the stuff in the bible is considered highly immoral today, so to solve it, we have to somehow make it obsolete while at the same time, not "violate" God and Jesus in the process.

We're getting there

 

[King Phenomenon]

Paul (and you) are entitled to your opinions, and so am I. The reason I am not associated with any sect of religious Christianity is exactly because they all want to interpret the story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection for me. So they can then act as the arbiter between humanity (myself) and God. A position that no man or group has the right nor ability to presume upon themselves. And a position I will not cede to anyone.
Jesus was a Jew telling other Jews to stick to their religion. He was not telling all humanity they must become Jewish.

Nor did he say to other people other than Jewish people, do not follow me.

 

[eik]

Paul (and you) are entitled to your opinions, and so am I. The reason I am not associated with any sect of religious Christianity is exactly because they all want to interpret the story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection for me. So they can then act as the arbiter between humanity (myself) and God. A position that no man or group has the right nor ability to presume upon themselves. And a position I will not cede to anyone.

You can't pretend you're a scholar when you aren't. And we need teachers and scholars to help us understand the bible. Yet many are charlatans, I'll agree; but if you reject all instruction from the wise and learned, then take heed of Proverbs 1:7. The bible is not a book where everyone is entitled to hold forth an authoritative opinion. Everyone will have an opinion, but to be confident of understanding the bible aright, you need to seek out and learn from those with authority themselves. And Jesus himself, the final authority, condemns all forms of immorality in Mark 7:21-23.

Jesus was a Jew telling other Jews to stick to their religion. He was not telling all humanity they must become Jewish.

Jesus was sent only to the Jews. After his crucifixion God revealed to the apostles that the gospel was to be preached to all nations, in accordance with Old Testament prophecies. Although released from the rudiments of the letter of the law by grace (i.e. "do this and don't do that"), both Jesus and the apostles revealed that the grace of God could only be received by those who repented of their sins and their immoralities and upheld the moral law (Rom 3:31).

Repentance holds the key to being a Christian, not having some arbitrary opinion on the bible, for those who will not repent are condemned for eternity: Rev 21:8.

 

[halbhh]

As far as JC saying homosexuality is bad

Well, you'd want to be accurate, so you should know He didn't say such in the 4 gospel accounts of his sayings.

More, he also treated women and other people in lower status at that time groups as equally important, often to the anger of those in positions of power. What about gays? The Centurion's servant, and so on? As far as we can see, equal Love. He didn't discriminate like people you know...

While I wouldn't necessarily go to the level of trying to claim His "beloved" disciple was anything but true platonic love of the pure higher sense of Love, He just did not have the ordinary prejudices you are used to in people.

(Now, that a person is gay doesn't somehow make them superior in virtue or invulnerable to all the ordinary sins though, not even if, as often is, they are unusually good at loving others. It can easily seem to us that gay people are just better on average, because it can be that all the ones we know are better than average at loving others. But, in reality, they are equally in need of a Savior.)

 

[King Phenomenon]

Well, you'd want to be accurate, so you should know He didn't say such in the 4 gospel accounts of his sayings.

More, he also treated women and other people in lower status at that time groups as equally important, often to the anger of those in positions of power. What about gays? The Centurion's servant, and so on? As far as we can see, equal Love. He didn't discriminate like people you know...

While I wouldn't necessarily go to the level of trying to claim His "beloved" disciple was anything but true platonic love of the pure higher sense of Love, He just did not have the ordinary prejudices you are used to in people.

(Now, that a person is gay doesn't somehow make them superior in virtue or invulnerable to all the ordinary sins though, not even if, as often is, they are unusually good at loving others. It can easily seem to us that gay people are just better on average, because it can be that all the ones we know are better than average at loving others. But, in reality, they are equally in need of a Savior.)

Well he said follow the laws so....

 

[halbhh]

I think Christianity is in decline because its message has grown stale. It's also weak. They apparently think that, just because they stand against homosexuals, that makes them a bunch of tough guys. But when it comes to standing up against the racist/capitalist/imperialist ruling class, they demonstrate that they're not so tough after all. Christianity enables tyranny, greed, and exploitation, and more people seem to be recognizing this. If the church isn't going to stand up for the people, then why should the people them?

At least according to what's in the scripture, Christians are to stand up for the oppressed and unfortunate, and Christ (who should know, right?), says that those who love Him will keep His commands, and says that that that don't keep His commands will be destroyed. This is pretty clear to those who read the text (meaning more than only a few verses, but reading through).

 

[halbhh]

Well he said follow the laws so....

I found it was truly surprising to reread the gospels again even for a 4th time (say if you haven't recently say in the last 3 years). I found it was very very surprising, because my life experience was if I read something through twice I just had it down. His words are different -- they continue to teach, further, each time. The thing with the "law" is quite interesting, and even many in churches don't really get it well, but it's holistic really (is one way of saying it). Through Him we can be changed to become more and more able to follow the true, real essence of the law (that is, even in moments when it's not so easy) -- Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. . One of the things I finally realized is that this isn't an incomplete or only partial summary of the law, but instead it's the full essence of it, in a complete way, and that's so useful, because you can use it at times when something is less clear. There isn't anything in the law anywhere that this won't help to correct and clarify our ideas about, and that's so good, because many just don't understand a lot of what they read, we see, in so many churches, and in every really.

 

[King Phenomenon]

I found it was truly surprising to reread the gospels again even for a 4th time (say if you haven't recently say in the last 3 years). I found it was very very surprising, because my life experience was if I read something through twice I just had it down. His words are different -- they continue to teach, further, each time. The thing with the "law" is quite interesting, and even many in churches don't really get it well, but it's holistic really (is one way of saying it). Through Him we can be changed to become more and more able to follow the true, real essence of the law (that is, even in moments when it's not so easy) -- Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. . One of the things I finally realized is that this isn't an incomplete or only partial summary of the law, but instead it's the full essence of it, in a complete way, and that's so useful, because you can use it at times when something is less clear. There isn't anything in the law anywhere that this won't help to correct and clarify our ideas about, and that's so good, because many just don't understand a lot of what they read, we see, in so many churches, and in every really.

I haven't read the Bible in 20 years. I'm pretty much set with that. I don't think there's really any gray areas when it comes to Jesus and what he thought about homosexuality. I think if you could ask him point-blank, is it wrong, he would said yes. There's no point for me to sugarcoat it. I stick with my thoughts of him making a mistake or being sexually repressed

 

[halbhh]

I haven't read the Bible in 20 years. I'm pretty much set with that. I don't think there's really any gray areas when it comes to Jesus and what he thought about homosexuality. I think if you could ask him point-blank, is it wrong, he would said yes.

Well, if you learn all He said, then you'd have to say He totally accepts all sinners, for one thing, and it doesn't matter whether the person knows what their actual sins are, as people tend to not know very well.

People all over the map imagine some things are sins that are not sins.

The actual sins of an individual person aren't what most seem to think, often, including this anti-gay stuff, for example. Sin is to intentionally harm others. Being gay isn't intentionally harming someone. Of course gay individuals can sin just as easily as any of the rest of us, but temperament is never sin. Neither is doing something one thinks doesn't harm anyone.

But the anti-gay thing so prominent in a few certain groups of churches (probably less than half) today is actually anti-Christian in a serious way, because it goes directly against the teachings in the New Testament.

 

[halbhh]

I haven't read the Bible in 20 years. I'm pretty much set with that. I don't think there's really any gray areas when it comes to Jesus and what he thought about homosexuality. I think if you could ask him point-blank, is it wrong, he would said yes. There's no point for me to sugarcoat it. I stick with my thoughts of him making a mistake or being sexually repressed

Did you notice I said to you above that Christ did not say anything against gay people? That could have gotten missed. Sometimes I write too convoluted or too long a paragraph.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Well, if you learn all He said, then you'd have to say He totally accepts all sinners, for one thing, and it doesn't matter whether the person knows what their actual sins are, as people tend to not know very well.

People all over the map imagine some things are sins that are not sins.

The actual sins of an individual person aren't what most seem to think, often, including this anti-gay stuff, for example. Sin is to intentionally harm others. Being gay isn't intentionally harming someone. Of course gay individuals can sin just as easily as any of the rest of us, but temperament is never sin. Neither is doing something one thinks doesn't harm anyone.

But the anti-gay thing so prominent in a few certain groups of churches (probably less than half) today is actually anti-Christian in a serious way, because it goes directly against the teachings in the New Testament.

I'm pretty sure he thought it was a sin all homosexuals that I have talked to are offended by that so......

He does except sinners but that's not really helping The situation as far as I can see

 

[halbhh]

I'm pretty sure he thought it was a sin all homosexuals that I have talked to are offended by that so......

So, you are in for some surprises if you read Christ's actual words in the 4 gospels, I can see from that wrong impression you have.

If you want a suggestion closer to what He did say, look at some of what I've written to you above (but His words are better than my partial representation tho!).

Unrepentant bigots are most certainly losing out on heaven just as much as is anyone who is a racist, for example.

To be prejudiced against gay people is a sure ticket to the "second death" for those that do not repent, just like being a racist would be.

Zero racists will get into heaven. Not even one. It's the same for bigots.

Having pointed that out, Christ came to save all, no matter their temperament. And all need Him for that, because all have sinned. (being gay doesn't change that situation in any manner)

 

[King Phenomenon]

So, you are in for some surprises if you read Christ's actual words in the 4 gospels, I can see from that wrong impression you have.

If you want a suggestion closer to what He did say, look at some of what I've written to you above (but His words are better than my partial representation tho!).

Unrepentant bigots are most certainly losing out on heaven just as much as is anyone who is a racist, for example.

To be prejudiced against gay people is a sure ticket to the "second death" for those that do not repent, just like being a racist would be.

Zero racists will get into heaven. Not even one. It's the same for bigots.

Having pointed that out, Christ came to save all, no matter their temperament. And all need Him for that, because all have sinned. (being gay doesn't change that situation in any manner)

I know he didn't speak of it directly and talked about love mostly but he followed the old testaments moral code. I'm just expressing how homosexuals feel about the teachings of Christianity.

 

[halbhh]

I know he didn't speak of it directly and talked about love mostly but he flwed the old testaments moral code. I'm just expressing how homosexuals feel about the teachings of Christianity.

In recent decades in the U.S. at least, we seen a lot of highly political 'Christians' saying X and Y and Z, and it will turn out none of that is in the New Testament when accurately understood by full context reading.

Often X, Y, or Z is somewhat like something in some verse, but distorted to fit a prejudice or political desire.... So, it's easy for them to make it seem as if their asserted particular politicized or prejudice urge is "Christian", when it is not.

So, the effect is people get an impression about Christianity that isn't representative of the kind that is following Christ.

 

[King Phenomenon]

In recent decades in the U.S. at least, we seen a lot of highly political 'Christians' saying X and Y and Z, and it will turn out none of that is in the New Testament when accurately understood by full context reading.

Often X, Y, or Z is somewhat like something in some verse, but distorted to fit a prejudice or political desire.... So, it's easy for them to make it seem as if their asserted particular politicized or prejudice urge is "Christian", when it is not.

So, the effect is people get an impression about Christianity that isn't representative of the kind that is following Christ.

None of that will change the fact that many homosexuals are offended by the Old Testament of which Jesus Christ adhered to. For this reason that's why I'm trying to give JC an out with the idea of him making a mistake or being sexually repressed himself. I like to keep an open mind of the possibilities of things that are in fact possible.