Christian pacifism.

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm starting to lean towards that way. I'm sick of all the violence, killing, harm, war, etc. that goes on the world. It completely breaks my heart and makes me want to become a hermit on some far away mountain. I just don't understand it. To me, it shows how primitive and barbaric a species we are, that we still do such things to each other, to say nothing of all the violence and suffering we impose on our non-human brothers and sisters we share the planet with. Our Lord instructed us to turn the other cheek and to pray for those who persecute us. The glorious and holy Martyrs also did not fight against their oppressors but went bravely to their deaths and on to eternal glory. Their stories astonish me and I could only hope that I had an ounce of their strength and valor.

To me, it seems that it would be better to die than to harm another. After all, if you have faith, you must know that this life is not the end.

 

[InChrist]

I'm started to lean towards that way. I'm sick of all the violence, killing, harm, war, etc. that goes on the world. It completely breaks my heart and makes me want to become a hermit on some far away mountain. I just don't understand it. To me, it shows how primitive and barbaric a species we are, that we still do such things to each other, to say nothing of all the violence and suffering we impose on our non-human brothers and sisters we share the planet with. Our Lord instructed us to turn the other cheek and to pray for those who persecute us. The glorious and holy Martyrs also did not fight against their oppressors but went bravely to their deaths and on to eternal glory. Their stories astonish me and I could only hope that I had an ounce of their strength and valor.

To me, it seems that it would be better to die than to harm another. After all, if you have faith, you must know that this life is not the end.

I have to agree with many of the sentiments you've expressed and have often felt like being a hermit, though I know that really isn't the answer. It is very discouraging and heart-wrenching to see the impact of violence and war, along with the barbaric, inhuman way people can treat others. It is difficult to understand, except that it makes me realize the truth of the scriptures as they reveal the wickedness of the human heart and our need of a Savior to transform us from such a sinful state into a new creation.

I'm not sure I totally think pacifism is the answer either and would depend on the situation. It is one thing to accept personal persecution and/or death as the martyrs did rather than fight back because as you've pointed out there is eternity beyond this short life. But I think a Christian is called to come to the defense of others that may be in danger from those with harmful intentions. Along with that, the scriptures show that God has ordained government and given them authority to protect their citizens from harm and evil. It is just too bad that so often this authority is abused for self-serving power and greed rather than the interests of the citizens they are called to serve and protect.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Christianity should not be looked at as just a religion. If Christians actually followed the teachings of Christ, it would be something more, it would be a movement and it would be a peace movement, it would be a movement against oppression, it would be a movement for justice. All churches should be peace churches and all Christians should be peacemakers.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Along with that, the scriptures show that God has ordained government and given them authority to protect their citizens from harm and evil. It is just too bad that so often this authority is abused for self-serving power and greed rather than the interests of the citizens they are called to serve and protect.

As an anarcho-communist, I don't believe that the State is instituted by God or that He desired such a thing to exist. I don't believe that God looks favorably upon humans ruling over other humans. The Lord is to be our only King and we are to be servants to each other only.

Church and State pt 3: Subject to the Governing Authorities (a Christian Anarchist
Anarchist Threads in Scripture: a primer on Christian anarchism, part 3
Romans 13 and the Christian Anarchist

 

[Phil25]

As an anarcho-communist, I don't believe that the State is instituted by God or that He desired such a thing to exist. I don't believe that God looks favorably upon humans ruling over other humans. The Lord is to be our only King and we are to be servants to each other only.

Church and State pt 3: Subject to the Governing Authorities (a Christian Anarchist
Anarchist Threads in Scripture: a primer on Christian anarchism, part 3
Romans 13 and the Christian Anarchist

I could argue that with "Pay to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's" Also we see in the OT, God raising up Judges to save and rule Israelites during times of trouble. Later we see God using Kings to rule Israelites both in Peacetime and War.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I could argue that with "Pay to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's" Also we see in the OT, God raising up Judges to save and rule Israelites during times of trouble. Later we see God using Kings to rule Israelites both in Peacetime and War.

The "pay to Caesar..." line seems to be an example of Jesus' wit because everything actually belongs to God. Leo Tolstoy put it this way: "Not only the complete misunderstanding of Christ's teaching, but also a complete unwillingness to understand it could have admitted that striking misinterpretation, according to which the words, "To Cæsar the things which are Cæsar's," signify the necessity of obeying Cæsar. In the first place, there is no mention there of obedience; in the second place, if Christ recognized the obligatoriness of paying tribute, and so of obedience, He would have said directly, "Yes, it should be paid;" but He says, "Give to Cæsar what is his, that is, the money, and give your life to God," and with these latter words He not only does not encourage any obedience to power, but, on the contrary, points out that in everything which belongs to God it is not right to obey Cæsar."

1 Samuel 8 tells us that it was the Israelites who clamored to God for a monarchy, when God wanted to be their only King. In the end, He let them have their wish but told Samuel that the people have rejected Him.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

1 Samuel 8 tells us that it was the Israelites who clamored to God for a monarchy, when God wanted to be their only King. In the end, He let them have their wish but told Samuel that the people have rejected Him.

And gave them a stark and realistic warning about what a king would do to them...they were going to oppressed.

 

[Alceste]

I understand I don't exactly belong in this DIR, but as a person who was raised Christian and still has the utmost respect and admiration for the teachings of Jesus, and as a person who was deeply influenced by the moral lessons I learned in my church (e.g. "love your neighbour", "turn the other cheek", etc.) I completely agree with you, Frank. You don't need to be a hermit, though. You could be a Quaker.

I have no appetite for hate. Neither do you, and neither did Jesus.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I understand I don't exactly belong in this DIR, but as a person who was raised Christian and still has the utmost respect and admiration for the teachings of Jesus, and as a person who was deeply influenced by the moral lessons I learned in my church (e.g. "love your neighbour", "turn the other cheek", etc.) I completely agree with you, Frank. You don't need to be a hermit, though. You could be a Quaker.

I have no appetite for hate. Neither do you, and neither did Jesus.

You're fine in this DIR as it's green.

I actually think about being a monk a lot. In my teens, I was seriously considering joining a religious order and attended a dinner for prospective religious sisters (sisters, for obvious reasons). I love Franciscan spirituality the most and they have a lay version of their Order, the Secular Franciscan Order, which is open to any member of the Church. I could press my luck and actually try to join the Franciscans as a brother. I know of a trans woman who is/is becoming a nun. So it's not completely unheard of.

 

[InChrist]

As an anarcho-communist, I don't believe that the State is instituted by God or that He desired such a thing to exist. I don't believe that God looks favorably upon humans ruling over other humans. The Lord is to be our only King and we are to be servants to each other only.

Church and State pt 3: Subject to the Governing Authorities (a Christian Anarchist
Anarchist Threads in Scripture: a primer on Christian anarchism, part 3
Romans 13 and the Christian Anarchist

Interesting article. Ultimately I also believe the Lord is our only king and authority, yet I see that the scriptures in Romans 13 are pretty clear that God has ordained governing authorities to uphold good. But as I have stated I think too often governments are not fulfilling their God-ordained purpose to uphold good, serve and protect, but instead are ruling,controlling and endorsing evil with self-serving motives.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And gave them a stark and realistic warning about what a king would do to them...they were going to oppressed.

Mmhmm. There was no State in the Garden of Eden, either, and there will be none after the end of time. We were and will be again, a universal order of equals united in the love of God. We screwed it up in the first place and that's why we're in this huge mess.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Interesting article. Ultimately I also believe the Lord is our only king and authority, yet I see that the scriptures in Romans 13 are pretty clear that God has ordained governing authorities to uphold good. But as I have stated I think too often governments are not fulfilling their God-ordained purpose to uphold good, serve and protect, but instead are ruling,controlling and endorsing evil with self-serving motives.

Well, I and all the others in the long tradition of Christian anarchism disagree with the interpretation that you agree with.

 

[Alceste]

You're fine in this DIR as it's green.

I actually think about being a monk a lot. In my teens, I was seriously considering joining a religious order and attended a dinner for prospective religious sisters (sisters, for obvious reasons). I love Franciscan spirituality the most and they have a lay version of their Order, the Secular Franciscan Order, which is open to any member of the Church. I could press my luck and actually try to join the Franciscans as a brother. I know of a trans woman who is/is becoming a nun. So it's not completely unheard of.

I have great respect for anyone who enters a monastic tradition. If you do decide to go that route, I've got your back.

From a personal perspective, my church growing up was a liberal Christian church. Their sole focus was the direct teachings of Jesus, especially those represented by the sermon on the mount. Unlike many Christian denominations, they were not particularly concerned with trying to reconcile their Christ-inspired ethics with the total nonsense in Paul's writings or the Talmud.

If you're sick of all the hate in the world, my childhood church would be right there with you, and they sincerely believe Christ would be there too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have great respect for anyone who enters a monastic tradition. If you do decide to go that route, I've got your back.

From a personal perspective, my church growing up was a liberal Christian church. Their sole focus was the direct teachings of Jesus, especially those represented by the sermon on the mount. Unlike many Christian denominations, they were not particularly concerned with trying to reconcile their Christ-inspired ethics with the total nonsense in Paul's writings or the Talmud.

If you're sick of all the hate in the world, my childhood church would be right there with you, and they sincerely believe Christ would be there too.

I don't think I would actually become a monk because I would like to have sex one day... XD Then again, I've never really had it so it's not like I'd know what I was missing.

 

[JayJayDee]

I'm starting to lean towards that way. I'm sick of all the violence, killing, harm, war, etc. that goes on the world. It completely breaks my heart and makes me want to become a hermit on some far away mountain. I just don't understand it. To me, it shows how primitive and barbaric a species we are, that we still do such things to each other, to say nothing of all the violence and suffering we impose on our non-human brothers and sisters we share the planet with.

Amen to that!

The biggest downer is that all the Abrahamic religions (Those engaged in today's bloodshed) actually have scripture that teaches them to love God and to be peaceable with their neighbors.

None of them were taught to hate their enemies nor were they ever told to torture them or to convert them under threat of death....man has perverted the scriptures if they think that God can possibly approve of their hate filled atrocities. This has been displayed by all. There are no "good guys" here.

A Pharisee asked Jesus..."Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matt 22:36-40)

All those who worship the God of the OT (Muslims, Jews and Christians) have an obligation to love God and also to do good to their neighbor.....Jesus demonstrated what that meant with the parable of the good Samaritan. A neighbor can be someone you don't even like...or who doesn't like you.

Paul also made it plain that "Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment." (Rom 13:10)

The Israelites were told....“If you encounter your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, you must by all means return it to him. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen under its load, you must not ignore him, but be sure to help him with it. (Exodus 23:4, 5; Lev 19:18)
Such a co-operative spirit would most assuredly have made enemies into friends.

Our Lord instructed us to turn the other cheek and to pray for those who persecute us.

None of the apostles resisted arrest nor did they plan an escape or plot against governments. They were totally at the mercy of their enemies and relied on God to strengthen their resolve not to "return evil for evil" or to become like the ones who were persecuting them.

The glorious and holy Martyrs also did not fight against their oppressors but went bravely to their deaths and on to eternal glory. Their stories astonish me and I could only hope that I had an ounce of their strength and valor.

:yes:

To me, it seems that it would be better to die than to harm another. After all, if you have faith, you must know that this life is not the end.

Indeed. Jesus conquered the world because he died faithful. To the Jews he was defeated but to God he was a conqueror because he did not allow his enemies to force him to compromise even in the face of a painful death. It was a victory for faith.

 

[Estro Felino]

The notion "Christian pacifism" is meaningless.
Because all Christianity is implicitly pacifist. I don't know any Christian denomination which is not pacifist.

 

[sandandfoam]

I think Tolstoy was the man.

The Kingdom of God Is Within You (Leo Tolstoy) | The Anarchist Library

 

[Glaurung]

The notion "Christian pacifism" is meaningless.
Because all Christianity is implicitly pacifist. I don't know any Christian denomination which is not pacifist.

You claim to be Catholic which officially teaches the acceptability of defensive war. But I suppose that's never stopped you from just making whatever you want up.

Anyway, in regards to my thoughts on the OP; we all agree that violence is horrible. However, in certain circumstances, I think to avoid it can be even greater an evil. Should Brittan have not fulfilled her agreed obligations to Belgium in WWI? Should Nazi Germany have been able to invade Poland with no reprisal from the Allies? Are we to allow such aggression to be unopposed out of a philosophical and moral diastase for violence? (no matter how understandable) I personally don't think so. I'm sympathetic, but I just don't think total pacifism is a realistic stance. Especially if it means essentially piggybacking on the protection of those who are willing to fight.

 

[Pegg]

I'm starting to lean towards that way. I'm sick of all the violence, killing, harm, war, etc. that goes on the world. It completely breaks my heart and makes me want to become a hermit on some far away mountain. I just don't understand it. To me, it shows how primitive and barbaric a species we are, that we still do such things to each other, to say nothing of all the violence and suffering we impose on our non-human brothers and sisters we share the planet with. Our Lord instructed us to turn the other cheek and to pray for those who persecute us. The glorious and holy Martyrs also did not fight against their oppressors but went bravely to their deaths and on to eternal glory. Their stories astonish me and I could only hope that I had an ounce of their strength and valor.

To me, it seems that it would be better to die than to harm another. After all, if you have faith, you must know that this life is not the end.

:clap This is the true christian path and its one that we all must take if we are to be united to our Creator.

As propesied in the bible, this is exactly what those who come to know our creator will do:

Isaiah 2:1 The thing that Isaiah the son of A′moz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

The result of being instructed by God and walking in his paths leads to "beating our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning shears and NOT learn war anymore"

This requires absolute pacifism in the face of provocation and war and the strength to do so comes from God himself. Peace is a fruitage of his holy spirit.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You claim to be Catholic which officially teaches the acceptability of defensive war. But I suppose that's never stopped you from just making whatever you want up.

Anyway, in regards to my thoughts on the OP; we all agree that violence is horrible. However, in certain circumstances, I think to avoid it can be even greater an evil. Should Brittan have not fulfilled her agreed obligations to Belgium in WWI? Should Nazi Germany have been able to invade Poland with no reprisal from the Allies? Are we to allow such aggression to be unopposed out of a philosophical and moral diastase for violence? (no matter how understandable) I personally don't think so. I'm sympathetic, but I just don't think total pacifism is a realistic stance. Especially if it means essentially piggybacking on the protection of those who are willing to fight.

Of course those countries shouldn't have gone to war. No countries should be going to war. No one goes to war for noble reasons and governments always lie about it. It's always because of power and money, especially now. War doesn't make anyone safer. That's another lie they tell you to get you to support it. The world is run by a bunch of rich people who hate us "common" people and they view us as nothing but cattle. Soldiers are just cannon fodder and are thrown aside and forgotten if they make it back home.

I'm not fighting anyone's wars and I don't ask anyone to fight any wars for me.