Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
What the human eye has never seen, nor ear ever heard, nor ever imagined by the human mind, this is what God has prepared for those who love him 1 Corinthians 2:9
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Christian Mysticism - Why ?
- Thread starter John D
- Start date
What the human eye has never seen, nor ear ever heard, nor ever imagined by the human mind, this is what God has prepared for those who love him 1 Corinthians 2:9
blackout
Violet.
no a fast is not a ritual
in the sense of LHP rituals....
perhaps you are unaware of this?
Ritual in this sense involves what is called "ritual pattern making"
40 of course is a specific number, a number of maturity, one that is repeated in Judaism
Honey. You still do not get it.
I did not come in here as an advocate for the LHP.
I came in here to discuss Mystic Christianity,
because it is a conversation that interests me,
due to my own past experience.
Where did I say that a 40 day fast
was specifically a LHP type ritual?
I personally engage in all kinds of magic/k/s.
Some are very simple.
Some are inspired on the spot. (Moving me rather like the wind)
Since you seem "hell bent" on discussing LHP rituals
(and not I)
I will say this.
The POINT of a Setian ritual is to purposefully
and dramatically Change your Subjective Reality
to the point where it begins to effect objective reality.
You cannot tell me a 40 day fast in the desert
does not accomplish this very same goal.
I stand by my interpretation that the Jesus character
is best decribed as Magus though.
There are SO many styles of interaction
with the transformative/magical nature of the universe.
It also seems clear to me that this Master... this Teacher...
wanted his deciples to follow in his way.
But clearly I am mostly alone on this I guess.
(I'm sure my LHP friends wouldn't like my personal interpretation
any more than you all do either, I might add.)
If I wanted to STRICTLY discuss LHP...
and even MORE strictly...
Setian Magic...
I would go into the Setian forum.
I am HERE for other reasons.
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blackout
Violet.
Honey, I don't want or expect anybody to be "impressed" with anything about me.
It was exceedingly frustrating for me as a christian though
to be told by every other christian around me
that I was not christian.
When Power speaks,
the words of others mean nothing.
I was fighting over a label...
over words... only.
I am unsure how you can say this Power so Great
which is the heart and meaning of all of your (inward/outward) journeying
brings you no gain?
also, as an aside...
If I do not "plan" my journey today,
my children will have NO heat,
and NO food all weekend
with a huge snowstorm coming.
There is such a thing as "flexable" planning.
If I do not "plan" my musical arrangements,
and actively go out and get gigs,
If I do not plan how I'm going to get to work
when my van is broken...
I will have no money to give the elite banking families
at the end of the month
so I can keep a home over my childrens' head.
If jesus wanted you all "blind"
he would have gone around healing those with vision
of their ability to see.
(ie... he would not have been bestowing vision to the blind...)
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Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
of course a 40 day fast would change things
I don't however see how a fast is a ritual..of any kind
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
.
I think this highly depends on whether you view him as just another inititiate
or not....
to me he is far more than just an inititiate...
no-body
Well-Known Member
In most forms of mysticism using these rituals for that very reason means you will never get there. Which a lot of mystics describe as the irony of enlightenment/knowing god/reality/etc when it gives you what you want you no longer want it but that's why you get it.
You can plan what techniques are best for you to get in that state of mind, but you cannot plan the state of mind.
John D
Spiritsurfer
Ultra,
What I am saying is when something "mystical" happen in your life it will be an experience you alone will recognise as mystical - other's will see it as "madness" or as asign that you are drifting away from the truth that they recognise.
They will cruzify you verbally. Especialy christians who don't like this spiritually free stuff.
Peaople will burst your bubble,everytime you try to speak about it. You will be sidelined and even seen as an odity.
When I speak of the "going blind" scenario I am talking spiritually - the time when you are travelling in the spirit.
To cope in the world out there you needs your brain and other faculties to operate well in order to survive, no time for daydreaming. But, your driving force must come from the Kingdom from within. It will influance the reason and the manner you go about the mundane living. It is from this Kingdom from within that you will receive peace and calmness while you are running around doing survival stuff out there in the world.
We are actualy living two lifes at the same time, the one where we play the "moneygame" and the hidden one on the inside without any spectators.
blackout
Violet.
This is all very true.
But for me,
it was a very sad commentary on christianity in general.
That christians in general
were so closed to the idea of personal epiphany.
Heightened awareness.
The kingdom of gOd Within...
branching up and out around you,
in the Midst of you.
I really don't know why I had expected more.
The kingdom comes without (clearly discernable) perception
to others (on the outside) I know.
But I enjoy other people's heightened awareness stories.
I enjoy other people's amazing syncronicity stories.
I love when people share their experiences of expanded possibility,
and personally revealed insight.
I just have found there are more non christians willing to go there
then christians.
People of all different walks
experience these same kinds of things,
but they put different words, labels, explainations to them.
I feel like I am now getting in the way of wherever it was
you wanted this thread to go.
Sorry about that John D.
~Violet~
John D
Spiritsurfer
Nope.
The question is.... WHY??
And you are doing just great !!!
The followers of Christianity is just that ...followers... It is the One being followed that is Important.
I think that a lot of Christians may be to scared to acknowledge "the experience" to themselves in fear of "sinning".
It must not stop you, even if you are alone in a crowd experience something that expands your soul.
Charismatic Christians experience of a lot of emotional stuff, which feel very real and spiritual to them. The test is always - does it last or do you have to "reload" it.
Spiritual experiences of the inward kind last for ever because it becames a building block.
LoTrobador
Active Member
You're welcome.
I think the main problem with understanding your view on mysticism might be that while it uses terminology and language from various traditions and religious systems, it's unique and very personal, and your choice of words might more or less accurately describe your experiences (to the extent to which any mystical experience can be described), but not reflect someone else's understanding of the same words. And the choice of words is only one thing; the context (intellectual, experiential, religious, mystical), in which you put them, might be entirely different from that, in which they are used usually - which can make it even harder to understand. But still I think I do understand what you're writing about, at least I try to.
Apart from that - come on, it's mysticism that's being discussed in this thread, and I don't think it's the easiest subject do describe.
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LoTrobador
Active Member
obviously you are not familiar with the "LHP"
I try to be familiar with as many religions as I can, Sir, and I don't think what UltraViolet has been writing in this thread is distinctively, in its very nature, exclusively LHP. Also, there are different classifications (both historical and modern) as to what is LHP and what is RHP, and a huge variety of movements, organizations and views on the metaphysics among the self-identifying LHP practitioners, so I think to say her views are LHP would require further qualification.
As for the Temple of Set, I don't see 'Setian' under UltraViolet's nickname, nor a title pointing to her being a member of the Temple, to which being drawn to Setianism, to use her words, is not - in my opinion - equivalent.
The path of the mystic is of course the exact opposite
But you know...I don't wish to offend
so I'll leave it at that, if you seek to misunderstand, at least I have tried...
I'm afraid I might disappoint you, but I do understand this view. I think I also understand those, who see the 'emptying of oneself' as a path to oblivion or total destruction. And those who view this as a false dichotomy too. I think you might be interested in an article by Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D., titled "Likeness to God as Far as Possible": Deification Doctrine in Iamblichus and Three Eastern Christian Fathers; to quote:
In this paper, I will examine the manner in which the Christian tradition fluctuated between the two extremes of eternal separation from God, and the absolute, person-negating presence of God in the soul. It is in the pagan Neoplatonic tradition, as exemplified by Iamblichus, I will argue, that a personalistic, existentially viable theory of the eskhaton is to be found.
On the other hand, should you like to use the the preservation and advancement of the Self and apotheosis as distinctive or exclusive to LHP or as elements, by which to say wheter a movement is LHP or not, you might end up classifying LDS Church - with its literal becoming a god (or uncreated, eternal human intellects as in King Follett Discourse) - as even more LHP than, say, LaVey's Church of Satan or Pantheistic Satanism, not to mention the 'original LHP', Vamacara Tantra.
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John D
Spiritsurfer
Christian mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Christian mysticism usually centers on a practice or practices intended to nurture those experiences or awareness, such as deep prayer (i.e. meditation, contemplation) involving the person of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. This approach and lifestyle is distinguished from other forms of Christian practice by its aim of achieving unity with the divine. In the words of Oswald Chambers, "We receive His blessings and know His Word, but do we know Him?" (wikipedia)
There will always be a difference in the way people practice mysticism - Every person need to change something in their human makeup, in that can never be the same for all.
So it is not correct to demand a specific recipe to be followed - it is helpful only where selfdiscipline is needed, that must be developed by training. And sometimes you have to let go of some characteristic that used to define the very you !
There will always be a difference in the way people practice mysticism - Every person need to change something in their human makeup, in that can never be the same for all.
So it is not correct to demand a specific recipe to be followed - it is helpful only where selfdiscipline is needed, that must be developed by training. And sometimes you have to let go of some characteristic that used to define the very you !
blackout
Violet.
The idea of "Sin" and opening the doors to the "demonic realm"
along with all kinds of other taboos (depending)
does in fact breed fear that cuts off even the most naturally inclined
"mystic" from direct experience of the "unknown" ... the "mystery".
Powerful Spiritual experiences of the "inward kind" shift perception and paradigm.
These experiences alter you, and your experience of "reality".
Paradigm shifts can be dangerous to those who feel they will
live in eternal damnation for moving beyond their present (safe & labeled) paradigm.
(ie. the paradigm of mainstream christianity, or the paradigm of mystic christianity,
or the paradigm of the RHP or the paradigm of the LHP)
It was mystic christianity...
that led me where I am today.
My mystic christianity
was too LHP for the rest of christendom.
(and of course, it required throwing out basically everything from the bible,
except that which was quoted/attributed to Jesus directly)
I worked at that time under the assumption
that "the jesus stuff" was enough,
and the rest was all just surrounding confusion and unnecessary complication.
(I wanted no one's doctrine. Just the message of the master.)
My love of the Kingdom teachings at that time,
and the interpretations they inspired within me
were actually very LHP, though I did not even know the "word"/concept at the time.
It was actually the throwing away of all taboos,
fear of hell, deamons and sin...
and all authority but gOd speaking in me alone...
that was the direct catalyst to my own long season
as Mystic Christian.
My experience as well, 'proved' my interpretations true,
as I saw them come into Being all around me.
(though i now have other thoughts re. the nature of reality)
In the end however,
i found there was no place for me in christianity,
though my very LHP interpretations
of 'Jesus' kingdom teachings are still very dear to me.
(and always will be)
I do actually now consider mySelf a Setian Initiate,
though I sometimes wonder if i am LHP enough for the LHP.
The LHP is about Self Interpretation though,
and the personal path of Self Becoming and Self Definition,
so I have not found potential conflicts of meaning/understanding
to leave me standing, isolated & stranded at dead ends,
as christianity did. Personal In'spiration is always my guide.
Though I'm not above taking an occasional shortcut to the right...or walking backwards to the left...
(in the end, words are only as meaningful as the meanings with which you attribute them)
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blackout
Violet.
It was not my intention to bring Setianism into this thread,
but as to keep the inertia of my own story relevant to the larger conversation,
I'll ask...
do any of you, who consider yourselves christian mystics,
find that your views are of a more LHP bent than
"non mystic" christians?
Also... if christianity is not (normally) about the direct (mystic) union with god...
what IS it about?
but as to keep the inertia of my own story relevant to the larger conversation,
I'll ask...
do any of you, who consider yourselves christian mystics,
find that your views are of a more LHP bent than
"non mystic" christians?
Also... if christianity is not (normally) about the direct (mystic) union with god...
what IS it about?
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
It is often true that mystic traditions tend to follow very similar themes, which is heartening and defining for the mystic.
It is also not unheard of for Christian Mystics to be considered Left-Handed, since, after all, it is often following the same mythology (just a different interpretations).
For those who would disagree with UV, take a close look at some Gnostic beliefs.
John D
Spiritsurfer
I am no scholar of the LHP but what I've read it is a definite choice you make. You can't just gentle drift to the LHP - there are mystics using other methods and scriptures which,I am certain, could be seen as LHP.
Again I can only speak for myself, For me Christian mysticism is not a "do as you will" situation but rather a " do the oposite of your own free will". So the choices are there but not to be taken - you have to wait, sometimes weeks, to be led to a specific starting point. Spiritual discipline doesn't come naturally to me - I need to bee taught!
That can be quite painful at times
And, yes, mysticism is all about union with God -but only on His terms. It is all about getting pass the Cheribs with the flaming swords and by doing this gain enterence to the "Garden" and to reach the tree of Life. There is a way to be found, there is a truth to realise, and there is a Life to die for. And all of that lies in the Inside Kingdom.
Maybe one day I'll post something about my understanding of the happenings in the Garden of God.
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LoTrobador
Active Member
UltraViolet,
thank you for your posts. Could I just ask a couple of question - what precisely do you mean by LHP? What in your opinion does an LHP system consist of? What doctrines/practices are indispensable, fundamental to LHP? What does make a system a LHP system?
Well, as for things associated with modern LHP like individualism, (em)power(ment), antinomiansim, lack of desire for ego-destruction, I don't think their presence in one's system precludes this system from being Christian. I imagine a Christian describing the goal of mysticism as a union of the soul with the Trinitarian God and partaking it Its Divine Life, not a negation of person / ego-destruction*; antinomianism - Lutherans and Puritans, not 'mystical denominations' per se, had antinomian controversies (not to mention antinomian reading of the Pauline epistles); (em)power(ment) - if that would make a system a LHP system, the LDS Church would be LHP.
So I think questions about the relations between Christian mysticism and LHP are very interesting, but it's really hard to talk about it without a 'working definition' of LHP in the first place...
* vide: Rev Zelman (Jewish Renewal) speaking about ego-destruction (between 2:06 and 3:24)
thank you for your posts.
Could I just ask a couple of question - what precisely do you mean by LHP? What in your opinion does an LHP system consist of? What doctrines/practices are indispensable, fundamental to LHP? What does make a system a LHP system? Well, as for things associated with modern LHP like individualism, (em)power(ment), antinomiansim, lack of desire for ego-destruction, I don't think their presence in one's system precludes this system from being Christian. I imagine a Christian describing the goal of mysticism as a union of the soul with the Trinitarian God and partaking it Its Divine Life, not a negation of person / ego-destruction*; antinomianism - Lutherans and Puritans, not 'mystical denominations' per se, had antinomian controversies (not to mention antinomian reading of the Pauline epistles); (em)power(ment) - if that would make a system a LHP system, the LDS Church would be LHP.
So I think questions about the relations between Christian mysticism and LHP are very interesting, but it's really hard to talk about it without a 'working definition' of LHP in the first place...
* vide: Rev Zelman (Jewish Renewal) speaking about ego-destruction (between 2:06 and 3:24)
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blackout
Violet.
UltraViolet,
thank you for your posts.
Well, as for things associated with modern LHP like individualism, (em)power(ment), antinomiansim, lack of desire for ego-destruction, I don't think their presence in one's system precludes this system from being Christian. I imagine a Christian describing the goal of mysticism as a union of the soul with the Trinitarian God and partaking it Its Divine Life, not a negation of person / ego-destruction*; antinomianism - Lutherans and Puritans, not 'mystical denominations' per se, had antinomian controversies (not to mention antinomian reading of the Pauline epistles); (em)power(ment) - if that would make a system a LHP system, the LDS Church would be LHP.
So I think questions about the relations between Christian mysticism and LHP are very interesting, but it's really hard to talk about it without a 'working definition' of LHP in the first place...
* vide: Rev Zelman (Jewish Renewal) speaking about ego-destruction (between 2:06 and 3:24)
Well my LHP view of Christianity was that the Christ figure, Jesus,
was One with gOd (the "father"),
and as such Was Actually gOd... in that Oneness of Being,
and he wanted "us" to Be as One With gOd (the father),
as he and gOd were One. (his own words)
As well he pointed to his own ability to 'do what did not seem possible',
and said that we could do more. (with the faith of a mustard seed)
He said the Kingdom of gOd was Within.
Jesus went direct to gOd, AS gOd.
So as a deciple of the Christ(hood)
I felt it was my calling and birthright
to follow in the path... the way... the life...
of the Christ(hood).
So to follow in the life of the things I have cited....
Can you see where it leads?
(I know there are Gnostics who have these same leanings.)
At some point I had become Panenthiest,
before I even knew the word.
gOd was ALL, and as a part of the ALL,
I mySelf am "also" gOd.
When you come to see gOd in literally everything...
it is a hard thing to deny.
The Christ teachings became just that.
Teachings in BEcoming... or REALizing... the Christ inherent in you. in me.
Certainly there are many definitions & traditions of LHP/RHP,
but because we are talking about mystic christianity here,
I figured this would make the point best,
and keep us on topic.
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blackout
Violet.
I might also add,
my Self, my health, my personhood
was crumbling before this,
after a number of years
as a devout traditional christian.
I was literally dying.
Now some may feel this,
"dying to the self"
is the exact calling of the christian,
but I had children,
three of them quite young,
who all needed me.
And for them, I did not want to die.
But I could not go on in chronic illness
(three years)
and personal nothingness,
total disapointment in the religion/god
I had formed my life around,
laying there on the sofa
waiting for gOd to "do things for me"
or wake me up to a whole new reality.
If I waited any longer for gOd to exercise
my Will, or "his will" for me...I would have died.
So I stopped praying to be healed.
I stopped begging.
I stopped asking.
I stopped being angry at gOd for abandoning me,
I stopped being disapointed in life for giving me lemons.
And I got in there and did it mySelf.
I LED that healing.
I did it by intuition.
I commanded, and invited.
I worked Wholistically,
in that body, mind, and spirit are one.
I explored mySelf deeply,
inside and out,
and within a couple of short intensive weeks,
alone there on my healing bed,
my debilitating 3 year sinus nightmare
was essentially gone.
I was able to start living again.
Then much followed.
This was active though.
It was an active and intensive work on my part.
It included the aspect of "faith" yes,
faith that I could "command" this thing.
This healing.
But it really was not prayer.
I did not "ask" gOd for anything.
Yet neither was it "doing without doing".
I simply commanded in the Spirit of ...
peace, clarity, openness...
whatever I was working to heal in mySelf.
And I cast out, the very same way.
(dripping sinuses, drippy attitude... etc etc)
Oh yes, and essential oils and healing baths,
really helped relax me in every way,
(I was so tense from constant 24/7 illness,
and also growing resentment and disapointment)
so I could get deep into each area of my Self.
This was my first active work as a Mystic Christian,
and my epiphany soon followed.
my Self, my health, my personhood
was crumbling before this,
after a number of years
as a devout traditional christian.
I was literally dying.
Now some may feel this,
"dying to the self"
is the exact calling of the christian,
but I had children,
three of them quite young,
who all needed me.
And for them, I did not want to die.
But I could not go on in chronic illness
(three years)
and personal nothingness,
total disapointment in the religion/god
I had formed my life around,
laying there on the sofa
waiting for gOd to "do things for me"
or wake me up to a whole new reality.
If I waited any longer for gOd to exercise
my Will, or "his will" for me...I would have died.
So I stopped praying to be healed.
I stopped begging.
I stopped asking.
I stopped being angry at gOd for abandoning me,
I stopped being disapointed in life for giving me lemons.
And I got in there and did it mySelf.
I LED that healing.
I did it by intuition.
I commanded, and invited.
I worked Wholistically,
in that body, mind, and spirit are one.
I explored mySelf deeply,
inside and out,
and within a couple of short intensive weeks,
alone there on my healing bed,
my debilitating 3 year sinus nightmare
was essentially gone.
I was able to start living again.
Then much followed.
This was active though.
It was an active and intensive work on my part.
It included the aspect of "faith" yes,
faith that I could "command" this thing.
This healing.
But it really was not prayer.
I did not "ask" gOd for anything.
Yet neither was it "doing without doing".
I simply commanded in the Spirit of ...
peace, clarity, openness...
whatever I was working to heal in mySelf.
And I cast out, the very same way.
(dripping sinuses, drippy attitude... etc etc)
Oh yes, and essential oils and healing baths,
really helped relax me in every way,
(I was so tense from constant 24/7 illness,
and also growing resentment and disapointment)
so I could get deep into each area of my Self.
This was my first active work as a Mystic Christian,
and my epiphany soon followed.
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