Christian Mysticism - Why ?

[John D]

I will like to post some info in Christian Mysticism.
A Quote from Brian Robertson which explain the difference between Christianity and the Mystical side thereof :

Please comment of you want to.

What is Christian Mysticism
By :Brian Robertson.
As with any religion, there are two types found within Christianity. The first is the tribal member. He or she favors a literal, concrete reading of Christianity, asserting that God is a judge with a rule book. Those who don’t play for “our team” are damned to eternity, and it can be our job to help them along the way to that end.
The second person is concerned not with knowing the rules and dogma, but with knowing the Mystery itself, which is to say living from within the experience of that Mystery. This is the search for and experience of that connection to and affirmation of God’s Presence on an ongoing basis. Here, the ideal is to live life from the very center of the Mystery, and to manifest into this world God’s compassion, love and mercy. It is to this group that Jesus of Nazareth belonged, and it is why, beneath the centuries of overlays in the name of scripture and tradition, we can still find at the heart Jesus to be of such central importance to our particular spiritual path.
God is not limited to our own prejudices, hatred, fear and projections. In fact, those very things keep us from experiencing the Mystery, as we are to celebrate God wherever that Presence may be glimpsed.
For a number of us, the clearest window on God is Jesus of Nazareth, which is why we are based in Christianity. The symbols and language of Christianity is such a part of our tradition, that they form the basis for our path. To be a Christian mystic is an active life of faith — to meet what we might call “popular” Christianity with great faith, yes, but also great skepticism. The spirituality OF Jesus has become the religion ABOUT Jesus, and a Christian mystic seeks a return to the origins of what it was to hear Jesus and to move beyond Jesus, as he asked us to do, to that to which he was pointing with his stories, teachings, words and life.

Pasted from <http://christianmystics.com/?page_id=52>

 

[John D]

To give you an idea of the way I see Jesus
Here is a view on Jesus the Nasarene from the book : “Jesus the Son of Man” By Khalil Gibran


Thus spoke Jesus, and unto all the kingdoms of the earth I was blinded, and unto all the cities of walls and towers; and it was in my heart to follow the Master to His kingdom.
Then just at that moment Judas of Iscariot stepped forth. And he walked up to Jesus, and spoke and said, "Behold, the kingdoms of the world are vast, and behold the cities of David and Solomon shall prevail against the Romans. If you will be the king of the Jews we shall stand beside you with sword and shield and we shall overcome the alien."
But when Jesus heard this He turned upon Judas, and His face was filled with wrath. And He spoke in a voice terrible as the thunder of the sky and He said, "Get you behind me, Satan. Think you that I came down the years to rule an ant-hill for a day?
"My throne is a throne beyond your vision. Shall he whose wings encircle the earth seek shelter in a nest abandoned and forgotten?
"Shall the living be honoured and exalted by the wearer of shrouds?"
"My kingdom is not of this earth, and my seat is not builded upon the skulls of your ancestors.
"If you seek aught save the kingdom of the spirit then it were better for you to leave me here, and go down to the caves of your dead, where the crowned heads of yore hold court in their tombs and may still be bestowing honours upon the bones of your forefathers.
"Dare you tempt me with a crown of dross, when my forehead seeks the Pleiades, or else your thorns?
"Were it not for a dream dreamed by a forgotten race I would not suffer your sun to rise upon my patience, nor your moon to throw my shadow across your path.
"Were it not for a mother's desire I would have stripped me of the swaddling-clothes and escaped back to space.
"And were it not for sorrow in all of you I would not have stayed to weep.
"Who are you and what are you, Judas Iscariot? And why do you tempt me?
"Have you in truth weighed me in the scale and found me one to lead legions of pygmies, and to direct chariots of the shapeless against an enemy that encamps only in your hatred and marches nowhere but in your fear?
"Too many are the worms that crawl about me feet, and I will give them no battle. I am weary of the jest, and weary of pitying the creepers who deem me coward because I will not move among their guarded walls and towers.
"Pity it is that I must needs pity to the very end. Would that I could turn my steps towards a larger world where larger men dwell. But how shall I?
"Your priest and your emperor would have my blood. They shall be satisfied ere I go hence. I would not change the course of the law. And I would not govern folly.
"Let ignorance reproduce itself until it is weary of its own offspring.
"Let the blind lead the blind to the pitfall.
"And let the dead bury the dead till the earth be choked with its own bitter fruit.
"My kingdom is not of the earth. My kingdom shall be where two or three of you shall meet in love, and in wonder at the loveliness of life, and in good cheer, and in remembrance of me."
Then of a sudden He turned to Judas, and He said, "Get you behind me, man. Your kingdoms shall never be in my kingdom."
And now it was twilight, and He turned to us and said, "Let us go
down. The night is upon us. Let us walk in light while the light is with us."
Then He went down from the hills and we followed Him. And Judas followed afar off.
And when we reached the lowland it was night.
And Thomas, the son of Diophanes, said unto Him, "Master, it is dark now, and we can no longer see the way. If it is in your will, lead us to the lights of yonder village where we may find meat and shelter."
And Jesus answered Thomas, and He said, "I have led you to the heights when you were hungry, and I have brought you down to the plains with a greater hunger. But I cannot stay with you this night. I would be alone."
Then Simon Peter stepped forth, and said:
Master, suffer us not to go alone in the dark. Grant that we may stay with you even here on this byway. The night and the shadows of the night will not linger, and the morning shall soon find us if you will but stay with us."
And Jesus answered, "This night the foxes shall have their holes, and the birds of the air their nests, but the Son of Man has not where on earth to lay His head. And indeed I would now be alone. Should you desire me you will find me again by the lake where I found you."
Then we walked away from Him with heavy hearts, for it was not in our will to leave Him.
Many times did we stop and turn our faces towards Him, and we saw him in lonely majesty, moving westward.
The only man among us who did not turn to behold Him in His aloneness was Judas Iscariot.
And from that day Judas became sullen and distant. And methought there was danger in the sockets of his eyes.

 

[blackout]

Must the Christian Mystic take the "Jesus Story" literally?

Or can a Christian Mystic's experience be
an allegorical.... esoteric one.

 

[John D]

Must the Christian Mystic take the "Jesus Story" literally?

Or can a Christian Mystic's experience be
an allegorical.... esoteric one.

I believe in such a man, but more I believe in His Words and His Spirituality. For me as a person it is easier to experience the "mystical" and know it is anchored in a Master that has walked the paths I am treading on.
I don't much tire myself with the poetry and Christmas stories (don't believe in Xmas ).

 

[blackout]

How much of the "scriptures" do you feel is necessarily relevant
to your "formation" as a Christian Mystic?

 

[John D]

How much of the "scriptures" do you feel is necessarily relevant
to your "formation" as a Christian Mystic?

All are relevent, because when you pick those that you like you destort the full 3 D picture. The danger is that you can get side tracked and then you are sitting with another "religion".
When a piece of scripture feels like utter nonsense, I just leave it for a while (months, years), and one day another piece of scripture draws you back, and your eyes are opened.
It's quite exiting actually when you realize that that old dusty Bible actually contains real hidden life.

 

[blackout]

Ok. So even Paul and Old Testament.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Mr Cheese]

the problem is, there is no seperation between Christian mysticism and Christianity......

There is Christianity; and a deeper understanding thereof...

the two are not seperate.

Name one well known Christian mystic that was not a mainstream Christian?

:sarcastic

 

[John D]

Ok. So even Paul and Old Testament.

Thank you for your time.

Ja, even them!
The OT is such a good example of what happen to people if they get caught up in religious laws,rituals and copycat spirituality. That is how you will lose the spiritual path. The Ot is full of examples of people losing their way,finding it again. There is one beautiful story of the "enemy" of Israel seeking cure for his illness - he got healed,and found the truth. His king was a worshipper of another God and our hero was afraid that he would commit a sin entering and bowing down to this god while escourting his king - !read what the man of God said

2Ki 5:1-19 NAAMAN, COMMANDER of the army of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, accepted [and acceptable], because by him the Lord had given victory to Syria. He was also a mighty man of valor, but he was a leper. The Syrians had gone out in bands and had brought away captive out of the land of Israel a little maid, and she waited on Naaman's wife. She said to her mistress, Would that my lord were with the prophet who is in Samaria! For he would heal him of his leprosy. [Naaman] went in and told his king, Thus and thus said the maid from Israel. And the king of Syria said, Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel. And he departed and took with him ten talents of silver, 6,000 shekels of gold, and ten changes of raiment. And he brought the letter to the king of Israel. It said, When this letter comes to you, I will with it have sent to you my servant Naaman, that you may cure him of leprosy. When the king of Israel read the letter, he rent his clothes and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man sends to me to heal a man of his leprosy? Just consider and see how he is seeking a quarrel with me. When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, he sent to the king, asking, Why have you rent your clothes? Let Naaman come now to me and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel. So Naaman came with his horses and chariots and stopped at Elisha's door.
Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored and you shall be clean. But Naaman was angry and went away and said, Behold, I thought he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and heal the leper. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? May I not wash in them and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. And his servants came near and said to him, My father, if the prophet had bid you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much rather, then, when he says to you, Wash and be clean? Then he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, as the man of God had said, and his flesh was restored like that of a little child, and he was clean. Then Naaman returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and stood before him. He said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel. So now accept a gift from your servant. Elisha said, As the Lord lives, before Whom I stand, I will accept none. He urged him to take it, but Elisha refused. Naaman said, Then, I pray you, let there be given to me, your servant, two mules' burden of earth. For your servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice to other gods, but only to the Lord. In this thing may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master [the king] goes into the house of [his god] Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, may the Lord pardon your servant in this thing.Elisha said to him, Go in peace. So Naaman departed from him a little way.

Total different view of God here

• Other nations concern Him as Well.
• He heals who He will, no man tell Him how and when
• To get to know Him can be as simple as go skinny dipping.
• He is not some mean God that will kill you for stepping into a wrong Temple - Because you are His Temple and where you go there He is.

All OT stuff and there is much,much,much more. The Blood and gore is just the human advertisements!!!

And Paul......I post something about him later ...so watch this space!:angel2:

 

[Mr Cheese]

I have already demonstrated in another thread, that the OT need not been seen through the eyes of literalism...or "religious laws,rituals and copycat spirituality." as you so quote.

 

[John D]

the problem is, there is no seperation between Christian mysticism and Christianity......

Oh they differ allright!
There is Christianity; and a deeper understanding thereof...
Isn't that Mysticism..to look deeper and wider and to seek that which can't be acheived through rituals and symbols

Name one well known Christian mystic that was not a mainstream Christian?
I will grant you this one .I know only those who lived their teachings from THE CHURCH -
Fenelon
Madame Guyon
Molinos
Brother Lawrence
Meister Eckardt
Thomas a'Kempis


Nominal Christians will quickly dismiss a Christian Mystic as a heathen or new Age disciple. In the Dark ages the church killed the mystics. One of the great Mystics Molinos dead in the catacombs where he was inprisoned - He was callled "The Great Heretic" His words still lives on!

On another Forum (Christian) they ask me 'why I follow Mysticism because it is a sin and against the Bible - didn't like my posts so much!

 

[John D]

I have already demonstrated in another thread, that the OT need not been seen through the eyes of literalism...or "religious laws,rituals and copycat spirituality." as you so quote.

So you did

 

[LoTrobador]

Name one well known Christian mystic that was not a mainstream Christian?

:sarcastic

Well, I think it depends on how far do you stretch the boundary of the 'mainstream Christianity' and on among whom are they well known, but I would say Emanuel Swedenborg, William Blake, Jakob Böhme or Rudolf Steiner.

 

[Mr Cheese]

the problem is, there is no seperation between Christian mysticism and Christianity......

Oh they differ allright!
There is Christianity; and a deeper understanding thereof...
Isn't that Mysticism..to look deeper and wider and to seek that which can't be acheived through rituals and symbols

Name one well known Christian mystic that was not a mainstream Christian?
I will grant you this one .I know only those who lived their teachings from THE CHURCH -
Fenelon
Madame Guyon
Molinos
Brother Lawrence
Meister Eckardt
Thomas a'Kempis


Nominal Christians will quickly dismiss a Christian Mystic as a heathen or new Age disciple. In the Dark ages the church killed the mystics. One of the great Mystics Molinos dead in the catacombs where he was inprisoned - He was callled "The Great Heretic" His words still lives on!

On another Forum (Christian) they ask me 'why I follow Mysticism because it is a sin and against the Bible - didn't like my posts so much!

Mysticism as defined by Thomas Aquinas is Direct interaction with the divine. Mysticism is full of ritual and symbols... arguably especially symbols...

A more accurate analogy would be to use the terms esoteric(for the few) and exoteric (for the many) Christianity as opposed to trying to seperate Christian Mysticism from Christianity... I understand what you are saying but really there is no seperation. In fact one can argue there is no such thing as esotericism...

In fact, arguably, to begin with a place of seperation could do more harm than good, because ultimatly you will discover that the beginning is found in the end....esoteric in the exoteric; we eventually go even further...and understand.there is no beginning or end.

....

 

[Mr Cheese]

There is within us a space, a field of the heart, in which we find a Divine Reality, and from which we are called to live. The mind, then, is to descend into that inner sanctuary, by means of the Jesus Prayer or wordless contemplation, and to stay there throughout our active day, and evening. We descend with our mind into our heart, and we live there.
The heart is Christ&#8217;s palace. There, Christ the King comes to take His rest.
Contemplation has been described as clear awareness without words. Contemplation is a &#8220;seeing clearly.&#8221; We lay aside thoughts, not to lead to a vacuum or drowsiness, but to inner plenitude. We deny to affirm. Wordless contemplation is not an absence, but a presence, a God-awareness. The aim is to bring us into a direct meeting with a personal God, on God&#8217;s terms.
Inner silence, inner stillness, called hesychia, is experienced by wordless sitting, imageless contemplation. When consciousness strays, a phrase like &#8220;Lord Jesus&#8221; can be used to bring the mind back, and then the person sits quietly in the presence of the Lord. The desire of wordless sitting awareness is to open oneself to God, to listen to God.
Some teachers suggest that if we are able, we spend a half hour of wordless sitting, begun by asking God to teach us to pray, or a Bible quote. Usually this is best done in the morning, upon rising or before noon. If the person is able, a block of the some quiet time is also recommended for the evening. Hopefully, all this is worked out with the direction of a spiritual guide.
Both the Jesus Prayer and contemplation make us single-centered, concentrating upon the here and now, focused, one-pointed. The point is God.
We don&#8217;t say the Jesus Prayer, or enter wordless contemplation, to get &#8220;some benefit.&#8221; We don&#8217;t pray to reduce our stress, or strengthen our immune system, or lose weight, or add years to our life. On the contrary, we enter prayer to follow Christ, to become open to Him. His way is the Way of the Cross.
Excerpts and further from:
http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/Albert-Rossi/Articles/Saying-the-Jesus-Prayer.html
http://www.jesusprayer.org/

Russian mysticism is predominantly monastic (though one meets an occasional exception like the modern non-monastic mystics, Father John of Kronstadt-recently canonized by the Orthodox Church-and Father Yelchaninov). It there&shy;fore thrives in solitude and renunciation of the world. Yet iyone who has even the most superficial acquaintance with Russian Christendom is aware that the monasteries of Russia, even more than those of the West, exercised a crucially im&shy;portant influence on society, whether as centers of spiritual life and transformation to which pilgrims flocked from everyw&shy;here, or as bases for missionary expansion, or, finally, as pow&shy;erful social forces sometimes manipulated-or suppressed&#8209;for political advantage. Such struggles as those between St. Nilus of Sora.and St. Joseph of Volokolamsk speak eloquently E the age-old conflict, within monasticism itself, between the iarismatic drive to solitary contemplation plus charismatic pastoral action, and the institutional need to fit the monastic community into a structure of organized socio-religious power, as a center of liturgy and education and as a nursery of bishops.
Other conflicts, such as that between Eastern Orthodox spirituality and Westernizing influences, play an important part in the lives of the monks and mystics of Russia. Many students of Russian spirituality will be surprised to learn what a great part Western theological attitudes and devotions played in the formation of St. Tikhon in the eighteenth cen&shy;tury. The seminary which Tikhon attended was organized on the Jesuit pattern and yet he was not influenced by post&shy;Tridentine Catholic thought. Dr. Bolshakoff identifies him rather with German pietism. In any case, we must not be too quick to assume that St. Tikhon&#8217;s spirituality is purely and ideally &#8220;Russian.&#8221; Yet, paradoxically, this combination of Western and Eastern holiness is a peculiarly Russian phe&shy;nomenon. St. Tikhon was perhaps the greatest mystic of the age of rationalist enlightenment.
Russian mysticism is to be traced largely to the greatest mo&shy;nastic center of Orthodox mysticism, Mount Athos. Ever since the eleventh century the Russian monastic movement had been nourished by direct contact with the &#8220;Holy Moun&shy;tain&#8221;-interrupted only by the Tatar invasions of the Mid&shy;dle Ages. Liturgy, asceticism, and mysticism in Russia owed their development in great part not to literary documents but to the living experience of pilgrim monks who spent a certain time at Athos, either in the &#8220;Rossikon&#8221; (the Russian monas&shy;tery of St. Panteleimon) or in various sketes and cells, before returning to found new monasteries or renew the life of old ones in their country. Periods when, for one reason or an&shy;other, communication with Athos has diminished have also been periods of monastic decline in Russia.
One of the characteristic fruits of Russian monachism on Athos is the &#8220;Prayer of Jesus,&#8221; the constant repetition of a short formula in conjunction with rhythmic breathing and with deep faith in the supernatural power of the Holy Name. This was a Russian development of the Greek Hesychast way of prayer taught by St. Gregory Palamas. The &#8220;Prayer of Je&shy;sus&#8221; became the normal way of contemplative prayer in Rus&shy;sian monasticism, but, more important still, it was adopted on all sides by devout lay people, especially among the masses of the poor peasantry.
Until recently, Western theologians were highly suspicious of Athonite &#8220;Hesychasm&#8221; and regarded it as perilous, even heretical. Deeper study and a wider acquaintance with non&shy; Western forms of spirituality have made Hesychasm seem a little less outlandish. It is now no longer necessary to repeat the outraged platitudes of those who thought that the Hesychasts were practicing self-hypnosis, or who believed that, at best, the monks of Athos were engaged in a kind of Western Yoga.
The &#8220;Prayer of Jesus,&#8221; made known to Western readers by the &#8220;Tale of the Pilgrim,&#8221; surely one of the great classics of the literature of prayer, is now practiced not only by charac&shy;ters in Salinger&#8217;s novels but even at times by some Western monks. Needless to say, a way of prayer for which, in its land of origin, the direction of a &#8220;starets&#8221; was mandatory, is not safely to be followed by us in the West without professional direction.
&#8211;Thomas Merton (Mystics and Zen Masters)
The Pilgrim&#8217;s Tale

 

[Mr Cheese]

Well, I think it depends on how far do you stretch the boundary of the 'mainstream Christianity' and on among whom are they well known, but I would say Emanuel Swedenborg, William Blake, Jakob Böhme or Rudolf Steiner.

well I wouldnt really call steiner a Christian per se...
considering anthroposophy is a mish mash of many things, it being a direct off shoot of the occultism of Theosophy

although you raise a valid point...although arguably besides steiner they all have their foot, somewhere entrenched in some form of exoteric christianity,,,....

For all their hatred toward the Pope, so did the Rosicrucians, who being Germanic, at least in their "exoteric" 15th-19th century permutations....relate to Steiner. Being as though despite the outward exoteric face being Protestant, Rosicrucianism of course is Catholic.

 

[John D]

Mysticism as defined by Thomas Aquinas is Direct interaction with the divine. Mysticism is full of ritual and symbols... arguably especially symbols...

A more accurate analogy would be to use the terms esoteric(for the few) and exoteric (for the many) Christianity as opposed to trying to seperate Christian Mysticism from Christianity... I understand what you are saying but really there is no seperation. In fact one can argue there is no such thing as esotericism...

In fact, arguably, to begin with a place of seperation could do more harm than good, because ultimatly you will discover that the beginning is found in the end....esoteric in the exoteric; we eventually go even further...and understand.there is no beginning or end.

....

As you wish, Big Cheese.
But it sounds like a bunch of people discussing the process,colour,flavour and texture of a slice of cheese, while the mouse in the corner is licking his paws - He knows the taste!

Somewhere, sometime you have to taste the cheese to really know.

 

[Mr Cheese]

As you wish, Big Cheese.
But it sounds like a bunch of people discussing the process,colour,flavour and texture of a slice of cheese, while the mouse in the corner is licking his paws - He knows the taste!

Somewhere, sometime you have to taste the cheese to really know.

You're the one wanting to see seperation immediatly...

as such you are the one then, cutting the cheese

when really if you read what I said, there is no cheese

 

[John D]

You're the one wanting to see seperation immediatly...

as such you are the one then, cutting the cheese

when really if you read what I said, there is no cheese

Quilty as charged !!!

I wish in my heart of hearts that such a separation was possible.
There is this longing inside of me for a real showing of the power of the Words of Christ if they are truly lived.
I don't no anyone alive that are able to do this, pity.

 

[blackout]

There is this longing inside of me for a real showing of the power of the Words of Christ if they are truly lived.

Perhaps the Words of Christ are Mis'represented.