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Christian denominations vs JW "New Light", Unity and Truth

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
...versus...




??

Contradictions. To be expected.

Hi Hockeycowboy,

It actually isn't a contradiction since I didn't state the reason why people will only learn many of the teachings while they are in the group. It is not because the Witnesses do not have all information available. It is the way people are taught and what information people are out rightly exposed to before baptism. I am implying that people shouldn't think that the Witnesses have the truth once they get baptised because they don't know the organisation's whole history with doctrine and their current doctrine.

Example, the Bible Teach book is very simplistic compared to the Insight book. And Witness doctrine is so extensive that one will have to read many Watchtower's, Books and the Insight books to stumble across certain understandings and fully understand them. The basic approach to teaching is that students are fed "milk" and eventually progress to "solid food" as they gain a better understanding. Which means that one only needs to know the bare basics in order to get baptised. Complex teachings are not pushed forward from the beginning. One doesn't even need to have read the whole bible, understanding verses in context, in order to qualify for baptism. So there is a great chance that after baptism a person will stumble on teachings that they completely disagree with and have to promote. For me it was that Christ is only the mediator for the anointed, which was a deal breaker and which wasn't explained to me from the outset. I specifically had to study that topic in the insight book and a Question from readers article written years ago to check it out. Back then I was arrogant, young and stupid so I thought I knew everything in order to make life altering decisions. Now I am wiser (I hope). So me joining was completely my fault. :D

What I stated above should be understandable. Obviously one has to start with the basics and progress to more complex understanding of doctrine. I have no problem with that. The issue is that the organisation should not be disfellowshipping and shunning people for eventually disagreeing with doctrines that they were not taught when studying before baptism, therefore were not taking into account when making the decision. Simple. If one can only understand complex doctrine later on, after baptism, when they have full access to prayer, then they shouldn't be punished for wanting to leave later when stumbling onto a fundamental deal breaker. I had no problem with leaving. But I know that others have too many deep connections with people on the inside and leaving the group is incredibly difficult and traumatising for some. If they have family in the group and they leave, the family will shun them, so many do not leave the group because they have a figurative bullet held to their head and end up living a lie. It is actually crazy that people, even young teenagers are encouraged to commit to the organisation when they do not have the mental faculties or life experience to make such a choice, knowing the consequences if they eventually disagree with it.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
The GB are anointed brothers (just like other anointed ones), but they are still brothers. Given a heavy responsibility.
You talk about them all the time! (Do you think they are making money off of JW's? They have no mansions or Cadillacs.)

Take care of yourself.

They are not just your brothers though. They are the people who you believe you have to associate with in order to gain access to salvation. Christ mediates between them and Jehovah and, in turn, they mediate between Christ and the other sheep. They take the lead, therefore they are your leaders. They have great responsibility, and with that responsibility they have power. They dictate the rules, the rest follow. They are so much more than your brothers. If they will reign as Kings and Priests over the other sheep they are as equal as Kings are to peasants.

As for the riches, they don't reveal the financials to the rest of the Witnesses as far as I know, so neither you nor Savagewind nor I know whether they are making money off JW's. We do know that Anthony Morris drives a white Cadillac though :) (But he could have bought that himself.) We also do know that Rutherford did build Beth-Sarim back in the day which was for who's benefit?

Come to think of it, what do we all know about the GB? Pretty much nothing. We would actually have to speak to Witnesses who worked with them in order to know that.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
From what I understand about most Protestant denominations I have come across (as an example) is that they do not dispute what they see as the fundamentals of Christianity, but they choose the denomination depending on what that denomination emphasizes.
I would dispute this. Perhaps they have the same key high level "buckets" for certain doctrines, but their viewpoints are different and contradictory. For example, Christ's atonement for our sins: there are many views on this; what it means, how it works. The only thing in common is the sentence: "Christ died for our sins".

Another example is Calvinism as taught by John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul. If you don't believe their view, they claim you are not really saved.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
So they still see each other as united.
How can you be united when the doctrines are different? Certain Protestants only grudgingly accept Catholics or Orthodox as fellow believers, and many think they are not. It's like saying, everyone living in America is united.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The bible allows open interpretation in many cases where it doesn't explicitly say something, such as in prophecy.
If Christianity is God's revealed true religion, why would it be so vague and open to various interpretations? What kind of God would reveal false information as inspired inerrant truth?

The prophecies are also vague. And they don't come true, in spite of the attempts of apologists and theologians to prove they do.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
So what they "believe" is dependent on other men's understanding.
This is also the case for Protestants. You can't join any Church unless you believe what they believe. They will shun outsiders. For example, many non-denominational churches are suspicious of whether or not members of denominational churches are really true Christians. And non-chariamatic churches and charismatic churches are suspicious of each others' teachings and practice.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
They haven't been keeping up with the organisations teachings. "New Light" also brings truth into the equation. JW's from 50 years ago had a very different view of scripture that they have today.
The same is the case with Christianity in general. The Christianity of today is radically different from that of any number of time periods of the past. And none of it matches the early church as evidenced by the writings of the early church fathers. And even they have strong differences of views on every aspect of Christianity.

The question should be: how can the "one true faith" revealed by God be so distorted and unclear? What kind of God would be so sloppy in his revelation?
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Someone who is studying the bible with them should be aware that they will only discover many teachings once they are in the group.
This is true of Christianity also. If you were stranded on a desert island with only a copy of the Bible, you would not discover within its pages anything even remotely similar to modern Christianity. There were many variant forms of Christianity in the early days and even into the modern era.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The implication of "New Light" when studying to get baptised as a JW is that what you believe to be proper bible teaching now will not be what they teach 50 years down the line as truth.
This is true of Christianity also. The life experience of a Christian at various centuries in history was vastly different. Modern Christianity would be unrecognizable to many Christians of past centuries.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
They are very similar to the Catholic Church (who they judged constantly) with regards to the qualities that they judge the RCC by: The Governing Body is equivalent to the Pope, they demand unity to a much worse extreme than the RCC before the Reformation, they withhold information like the RCC used to, they excommunicate like the RCC used to, they have inquisitions like the RCC used to
The difference between RCC and JW government is that RCC flows bit by bit from the early church; there is a historical continuity. JW invented its governing body from thin air with no historical traditional justification for doing so.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I would dispute this. Perhaps they have the same key high level "buckets" for certain doctrines, but their viewpoints are different and contradictory. For example, Christ's atonement for our sins: there are many views on this; what it means, how it works. The only thing in common is the sentence: "Christ died for our sins".

Another example is Calvinism as taught by John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul. If you don't believe their view, they claim you are not really saved.

One must look at their basis for what are the mandatory requirements for salvation. And it also depends on individuals. I am basing my understanding on Protestants as a whole.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
How can you be united when the doctrines are different? Certain Protestants only grudgingly accept Catholics or Orthodox as fellow believers, and many think they are not. It's like saying, everyone living in America is united.

I was talking about Protestants only. Catholics and Orthodox I am sure they would see as not saved, since core doctrines are different.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
If Christianity is God's revealed true religion, why would it be so vague and open to various interpretations? What kind of God would reveal false information as inspired inerrant truth?

The prophecies are also vague. And they don't come true, in spite of the attempts of apologists and theologians to prove they do.

I am currently thinking about the above. I do know that in context core doctrines are not open to interpretation. So Jesus dying for sins is a mandatory belief. I actually like the vagueness because it is like piecing a puzzle together. So I like it for entertainment.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
This is also the case for Protestants. You can't join any Church unless you believe what they believe. They will shun outsiders. For example, many non-denominational churches are suspicious of whether or not members of denominational churches are really true Christians. And non-chariamatic churches and charismatic churches are suspicious of each others' teachings and practice.

I think I know what you mean. What I have come across is that people are suspicious of other churches but still believe that the individual adherents are saved. You are actually making me think that the denominations are contradicting themselves.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
The same is the case with Christianity in general. The Christianity of today is radically different from that of any number of time periods of the past. And none of it matches the early church as evidenced by the writings of the early church fathers. And even they have strong differences of views on every aspect of Christianity.

The question should be: how can the "one true faith" revealed by God be so distorted and unclear? What kind of God would be so sloppy in his revelation?

True to a certain extent. Especially during the reign of Catholicism. And I personally do see how churches overstep the basic teachings of Christianity.

I would ask:

How would a God communicate Revelation in a clear way? To what extent does the human mind deliberately distort what they read? Heck, I am sure that if Harry Potter was a religious book it could be open to loads of interpretations.
 
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