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Featured Christian denominations vs JW "New Light", Unity and Truth

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Israel Khan, May 18, 2019.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    You do have a true point in what you say.

    Open interpretation is difficult to sustain. That is why one must have certain truths to be an anchor. After the reformation many groups formed believing that they could understand the truth on their own. It opened the way for one man claiming that he was sent by God. Then cults are formed. Such as the Anabaptist cult led by Jan Matthys and Jan van Lyden which led to the siege of Munster. You should check out Dan Carlin's podcast called Prophets of Doom which discusses them.
     
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  2. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Yeah, there are stunning truths held in common and stunning observations that come from sharing different opinions. It makes one think. I will definitely watch these vids. Thanks.
     
  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Regarding what Deeje said about the religious saying all sorts of horrible things about Jesus:

    The things they said about Jesus was not true, which is why what they said was horrible. One has to demonstrate that what I say isn't true in order for me to be classed with them and do class the JW's with Jesus.

    Also note that Deeje did not try to refute my statements, which is the easy way to objectively discredit lies and misinformation. If one notices in other threads, Deeje isn't one who refrains from reasoning on things in detail. The fact that she doesn't here is out of character I believe. To me that should validate to others that there is truth in what i am saying. Unless someone refutes me in the future.

    She says that she has nothing to defend, but there is actually quite a bit. If she could defend it then she would.

    This all demonstrates the aspect of control that I wrote about. Discrediting someone by attacking their character and not addressing the points stated is a sign of cognitive dissonance which is a sign of cult mind control. Also what I really dislike is the lies that the Organisation tells its followers and the misinformation.

    I myself am not whining about why I left. If it wasn't for the suicides that result from shunning,the child abuse problem and other mental health issues I have been sad to see in other witnesses I know, I might not even bother. But many Ex-JW's have suffered severely because of abuse in the organisation and are speaking out about it because they sincerely want to help others.

    Please do not take my word for it and do research from both sides of the story. Study JW.org, the JW Library app and Watch JW broadcasting. Watch Youtube channels like John Cedars and Kim Mikey. Study JWfacts.com. Watch Leah Remini's Scientology special about Jehovah's Witnesses. Watch the Australian Royal Commission videos on Youtube. Study the BITE model by Steve Hassan regarding cult mind control. Then come to your own conclusion.

    Maybe this information will help you to see dangerous signs in other groups and help you come to a realisation about them too.
     
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  5. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Interesting. My only real life experiences are with two little old ladies who drop off the watchtower at our house when I was a kid. They seemed polite and pleasant enough. And always left with food and drink shoved into their hands by my mother (Asians be asians I guess.)
    But they did seem standoffish, my mother would often try to engage them in cross religious discussion, but they immediately shut down and ran. :shrug:
    I once tried to do the same with two strapping young lads preaching Mormonism. One was very overtly polite and seemed interested. The other actually seemed horrified and whisked off his buddy after a curt farewell.:(

    I, for one, am happy that JWs choose to join this little random site. I may act antagonistic and angry to say @Deeje and I’m sure I’ve acted angrily in some convos with an old member JayJay I think. But deep down I am happy they are here and glad for their diversity. I can’t speak to their motives or whether such activities are sanctioned by the Watchtower or not. They seem nice enough, though, perhaps a little too “black and white” Imo. Deeje’s somewhat condescending emojis notwithstanding ;)
     
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  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    JW's are really nice people in general. Or at least they strive to love others to the best of their ability. Same with Mormons. I think many people have a lot to learn from the way they love others.

    They don't enjoy cross religious discussion because they fear outside information and opinions. The JW's on this site are out of the norm.

    I think that all views should be heard and that all JW's should be open to open discussion. The problem is that they are not to their detriment.

    Their motives are well intentioned but the Watchtower doesn't endorse being on sites like these. Some her remember when there was a mass exodus of JW's from this site. It was because the Org told them that they shouldn't have discussions luike these over the internet.
     
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    They in fact tried that I don't go to their Church.
    Regards
     
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "The fact that you will not participate further is disappointing. As I said, if you have a problem with what I said then refute me. If you are right then I will become a Witness again. But unfortunately all you have attempted to do is discredit me without addressing my points and use the ad hominem fallacy, which was unnecessary."

    It is a rational approach.
    For Bible study, no teacher is required. When one of my Catholic friends presented me with a Bible (OT and NT), I just started reading it from the Genesis and making notes. It took me three years to finish it as I did it with a lot of concentration. Now, I knew what is exactly in the Bible even more correctly than a priest or clergy would know. Sometimes the teacher take you away from what is exactly written in the Bible. When somebody from the Christians will discuss with me, I pointed out things what exactly was in the text and the context while they could not deny it and just said that they had not thought of it while they had gone through it many times in their life and even their priests did not know about them.
    I therefore suggest that one should study Bible intently from Genesis onward without a teacher. One will know more than a teacher could tell. It is easy.

    Regards
     
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  9. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    I am 100% with you on this!!! Awesome Viewpoint! Studying the Bible on my own made me question the teachings of the Organisation a lot. I discovered that they didn't have a verse by verse commentary on passages. There are some verses in Romans 8 which haven't been commented on since 1975 or before that. And Romans 8 discusses the fact that all Christians are anointed, not a select few, because one cannot please god without being an heir of Christ. Their view of the anointed led me to believe that they didn't have the truth.

    It is great that you know the Bible as much as you do. Studying verse by verse from Genesis to the end is the best method.
     
  10. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Those reformation groups are somewhat desperate. What bites them in the backside is this insistence of having certain truths as an anchor. Truth is self sustaining in that it shines down from God at all times. (James 1) We walk in the light. We are given birth by the word of truth coming down from the father of the heavenly lights, who alone does not change like shifting shadows. We, however, must confess our sin. We may not own the anchors of truth. That is how I understand this.

    I view this as "Let baal defend himself if he be a god." If every baal is required to defend itself, then we must not lower the standard for the truths we would see upheld. That truth which cannot sustain itself is not worth serving, and we introduce corruption by defending it. It must not be an anchor but must be anchored on its own if it can anchor us. This is what I think of the concept of trying to use anchor truths to create unity. It never succeeds. It gives us fat heads, creates a foothold for the satan. Only the God of peace crushes Satan in our midst, not we ourselves.

    I think creeds do not glorify God and create confusion, instead. Peace and communion through love, these will defend truth like nothing else will, not all of the various panic attacks the people have. People worry about if they should be re-baptized, if they should be using real wine instead of grape juice, if they should kick out the divorced, if they must not wear makeup. Here's one which divided the church: is trinity monotheist. I don't think God is too concerned about our opinions. They don't glorify God. They glorify us. I am feeling particularly clever for making this post. It glorifies me, so it cannot establish truth.

    Consider this explanation of Jesus parable of the house built upon sand (like those who regularly build at the Outer Banks), and see if you can agree. The sands are the anchors of truth people choose. For a time they can build on them, but then comes the stormy season. The rock is the humility required to let God's truth shine down on each person. It is me letting God be your judge. It requires the belief that God can do this, while the sand requires no such trust. The sand has the form of godliness but denies the power thereof. Instead it is grasping. It is mistaking our wisdom for God's power. If Jesus had wanted to he could have laid down full instructions for the Christian life, but instead he sent us something else. Then he prayed we would be unified. He gave us the power of forgiveness and in so doing the power to answer his prayer through humility. Then we would be building upon a firm foundation. We would say together let God be true and every man a liar that his judgment would be affirmed rather than ours.
     
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  11. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Fascinating. For me, such discussions were a matter of life. A necessary growth experience and a matter of honour. I don’t know why any organisation would bar such (albeit potential) spiritual growth for it’s members in any official capacity.
     
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  12. Vee

    Vee Active Member
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    I think this thread deserves a positive JW story, so let me summarize mine.
    Most of my life I didn't have a religion and I never felt the need for one. I'm one of those "do your own thing kind of person" and even though I always had certain beliefs, becoming a member of a religious group was not in my radar during most of my life.
    I have some JWs in my family who thought me a few things over the years. I listened, filed the information in my memory and kept going. I also have friends and family who are Catholic, Evangelists, atheists and a few other ists (some of them are not even very clear to me).
    In my late twenties and after a number of experiences that shaped the person I became, as well as a number of mistakes that could have been avoided if I had adopted better values, I started seeing the world going in a direction that seemed oddly familiar. And then I realized that the things I'd head from JW were developing so I told myself that maybe they were on to something.
    I contacted them through the website JW.org and organized a bible study. I studied for 2 years before making the decision of getting baptized. It was MY decision. No one told me that I had to, nobody ever pointed that I had been studying for a certain period of time and I should get baptized, no one pressured me in any way. And when I made the decision to get baptized I had to go through a series of meetings with the elders who waned to make sure I was doing the right thing for the right reasons. That's standard procedure. People become JW out of their own choice. I do however know some who were pressure by family members who thought they were being helpful. It shouldn't be that way, but unfortunately sometimes it happens.
    I've been a Witness for almost ten years and it's been very, very good to me. I love the group of people I belong with and they've made my life so much better in every possible way. Are there struggles and difficulties? Of course. But they can be dealt with, one at the time. As an introvert I will always have trouble participating in group activities, so being part of a religious group, as you can imagine, is not easy for someone with my nature. But is the effort worth it? Definitely, yes!
    I get along with lots of people who are not witnesses and love them just as much. I respect other people's points of view and appreciate their feedback.
    It's a great privilege to participate in this forum, even more to have been invited to become a Mod a while ago. You guys challenge me, give me a lot to think about and I am so grateful to have you in my life, even if it is only in a virtual way.
    As for the people who decided to stop being JW and left the organization, they made a choice to leave with the same freedom they had when they decided to join. And choices have consequences. Before getting baptized I was told that if my behavior wasn't in accord with Bible standard and I got dis-fellowshiped I would be excluded from other Witnesses lives. I was aware of the consequences as are all JWs. We all have to be prepared to accept the consequences of our choices whether we agree with them or not. What I have trouble with is people saying that when they get dis-fellowshiped they are alone in the world. Really? There are 7.5 billion people in the world and only 8 million are Jehovah's Witnesses. What stops anyone from making other friends, joining other groups?
    Personally I've had a really good experience as a JW so far and I hope it continues that way, but if I ever leave I hope I'll have the maturity and the soundness of mind to find a new path, make new friends and occupy my time with things that bring me and those around me some form of joy.
     
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  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    It is great that you have a good experience so far being a Witness. I know many who do too. I myself haven't had a relatively bad experience as a Witness. I have the same troubles as you as I am an introvert as well. Which is also a benefit when leaving because I don't have many attachments as I wasn't disfellowhipped but disassociated myself.

    I do have a few questions for you just to get your viewpoint on things:

    How do you view the Governing Body?

    How do other Witnesses view your participation on Religiousforums and do you think that the Governing Body would approve?

    How do you view the organisations stance on bad association? And what qualifies as bad association?

    Regarding being alone in the world, do you think that it is easy for people to leave knowing that their whole family will reject them? Do you think that there is a replacement for family and friends? Especially those who value family? Have you ever discussed the affect of disfellowshipping with those who were disfellowshipped?

    Also, regarding the doctrine of disfellowshipping, please state what the sins committed are from the context as to what is grounds for disfellowshipping.

    Also, if you are willing, would you mind giving a detailed refutation of my opening post?

    Thanks very much for the positive story.
     
  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Such discussions were also necessary for my growth. They wouldn't see considering opposing views as spiritual growth. They would see it as a spiritual sickness. Only obeying what they see as truth is considered spiritual growth.
     
  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Really I do not have much to add to your reasoning on this. A real WINNER post in my opinion.
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Follow the money as they say. Where does all the money given to the JW organization go? Where does all the money given to the Catholic church go? Etc.

    Jesus claimed that the real gate is tight and the real way is narrow and few find it. Stay away from man made organisations until you are led of the holy Spirit. Pretty much everything really big in this world is controlled at the top by the enemy.
     
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  17. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    What is interesting is that the JW's are cutting down on publications, selling Kingdom Halls and sending many Bethel members home. They have gradually been doing this over recent years. So they have been cutting down on cost. Before I left members of my congregation were even asked to write down on paper how much they would contribute per month. I do not know if this was throughout all congregations as a fact, but other Ex-JW's from all around the world were saying that it was happening over there as well. This could be a sign that they are low on funds relatively to what they used to have. This coincidently also coincides with the many millions of dollars that they have to pay in lawsuits over child abuse.

    Witnesses aren't actually told where the money is going as their finances aren't open for all Witnesses to see what they are doing with donations. So they can do what they wish with it and Witnesses wouldn't know. It is known that they spend a lot on publications and other things which the average Witness can visibly see in front of them. They have the most widely published magazines in the world. But Witnesses do not know how much the organisation actually receives and how much those other things cost.

    There are those who have researched and shown on Youtube the money trail of the JW's but I have no way of trusting what they say and dunno if what they say is true.

    I do agree with you on all the big stuff being controlled by the enemy. If they are big, then be suspicious.
     
  18. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect 1 Peter 3:15

    I might add that it isn't a group of people which Jehovah wills us to cling to. It is the way, the truth, and the life that is the true religion. I think that for each believing person it means a personal relationship with the way, the truth, and the life.
     
  19. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    It is true that the organization plants fear in Jehovah's Witnesses. I am not afraid of much, but when I had ample evidence that they were not actually "spirit directed" by Jehovah I was still terribly afraid of searching the internet for like-minded individuals. It took some months before I was brave enough to seek some outside information. And it was amazing! I had no idea that real evidence against them has existed for many years and was extremely easy to find.
     
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Some of these ex-JW's would've had a hard time living and coping in ancient Israel. The Israelites had many issues / problems, but as a whole, they were still Jehovah's people. There was nowhere else to go for pure worship.
     
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