Christian denominations vs JW "New Light", Unity and Truth

[Samael_Khan]

They are afraid of excommunication.

Yeah. Sad truth.

 

[tayla]

Interesting. Please explain.

All you have to do is find errors in Christian claims regarding history, science, and archaeology, as well as the contradictions in documents and doctrines. There is abundant information about these available; any skeptic site will list them (but they have neglected to mention some of the best examples).

Christian apologists and theologians try to explain the objections, but unsuccessfully.

 

[Samael_Khan]

All you have to do is find errors in Christian claims regarding history, science, and archaeology, as well as the contradictions in documents and doctrines. There is abundant information about these available; any skeptic site will list them (but they have neglected to mention some of the best examples).

Christian apologists and theologians try to explain the objections, but unsuccessfully.

Ok. So process of elimination. I remember that even though there was contradictions with reality, I could find a reason to say my religion was true. I basically ignored facts and could always convince myself that science is limited therefore for all they know, scientists could be wrong in their conclusions. Yet I had no problem jumping on the scientific contradictions in other religions.

What you mention above will probably trigger a similar cognitive dissonance in believers.

 

[tayla]

what if a truth cannot be provable?

Some things are provably true. These should be believed. Some things are provably false. These should be rejected. For those things in the middle -- well,... some are unlikely to be true, and should be rejected. Some are reasonable and worthy of belief. That's as good as it gets. We must live happily without knowing everything. Some (many) things are unknowable.

The problem is when religions claim they know, when they clearly don't. (Religions aren't the only ones who do this.)

 

[tayla]

And on what basis do you say that God does not reveal truth via religious or spiritual revelation? Do you think that he wants it done through provable methods? Especially since those methods are only recent developments?

I don't say that God doesn't reveal truth the way you mention. I claim, rather, that revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are not trustworthy sources of truth and knowledge. My evidence is: they all teach things provably false.

Therefore, God doesn't reveal truth via religions (since God would not teach error). Rather, humans have the capacity of mind which considers such philosophical concepts as truth and morals. We have to use the tools of philosophy to discern which views are false, which are true, and which are not knowable.

Even the hunter/gatherers of 200,000 years ago used their capabilities of reason to discern truth. But they made errors, thinking, for example, that thunder was a powerful living god. Modern flat earthers use similar bad logic. They should be more careful to not jump to conclusions too soon without the proper evidence. Even Aristotle made errors.

 

[tayla]

it is a matter of whether they believed that their belief was true.

I suppose the Nazi's who murdered millions believed doing so was the right thing to do. I prefer that we only believe something if it's provably true or worthy of belief. Otherwise, we may find ourselves doing bad things, believing them to be good.

 

[tayla]

If one joins a religion genuinely believing a certain doctrine

How about if someone joins a religion thinking it to be true, then later discovers it to teach false teachings? Sadly, this was my experience with eastern religions, eastern philosophies, and various Christian groups. I wasted most of my life in these pursuits. I'm tired of being fooled.

 

[tayla]

In most cases we are beyond the burning at the stake idea.

Usually, but not beyond the practice of shunning.

 

[tayla]

What you mention above will probably trigger a similar cognitive dissonance in believers.

Most will not have cognitive dissonance because the apologists are so good as coming up with satisfying answers for those unwilling to step outside the system to get other points of view. Once you do this, you either leave or have permanent cognitive dissonance.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I don't say that God doesn't reveal truth the way you mention. I claim, rather, that revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are not trustworthy sources of truth and knowledge. My evidence is: they all teach things provably false.

Therefore, God doesn't reveal truth via religions (since God would not teach error). Rather, humans have the capacity of mind which considers such philosophical concepts as truth and morals. We have to use the tools of philosophy to discern which views are false, which are true, and which are not knowable.

Even the hunter/gatherers of 200,000 years ago used their capabilities of reason to discern truth. But they made errors, thinking, for example, that thunder was a powerful living god. Modern flat earthers use similar bad logic. They should be more careful to not jump to conclusions too soon without the proper evidence. Even Aristotle made errors.

I understand the not trustworthy part.

I would say that whether God teaches error or not depends on his character. For all we know God could be very deceptive for his own amusement.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I suppose the Nazi's who murdered millions believed doing so was the right thing to do. I prefer that we only believe something if it's provably true or worthy of belief. Otherwise, we may find ourselves doing bad things, believing them to be good.

That is actually the scary part of religion that I was thinking about the other day. At best only one religion is right. Many religions have killed people for the sake of religion. Which means that many people's lives were thrown away on the basis of a falsehood. That is very evil in my mind.

 

[Samael_Khan]

How about if someone joins a religion thinking it to be true, then later discovers it to teach false teachings? Sadly, this was my experience with eastern religions, eastern philosophies, and various Christian groups. I wasted most of my life in these pursuits. I'm tired of being fooled.

That is exactly my experience as well. I am also tired of being fooled. But i hold myself accountable for being fooled since it was a rational choice I made.

 

[tayla]

At best only one religion is right.

Yes. This is proof they are all wrong. There is no basis to choose one over another.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Most will not have cognitive dissonance because the apologists are so good as coming up with satisfying answers for those unwilling to step outside the system to get other points of view. Once you do this, you either leave or have permanent cognitive dissonance.

Good point. People in general love living in ignorance because they want to validate their belief rather than question it.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes. This is proof they are all wrong. There is no basis to choose one over another.

I agree with that from an objective standpoint.

 

[tayla]

People in general love living in ignorance because they want to validate their belief rather than question it.

There may be other less sinister reasons. Maybe they haven't been trained to struggle to discover truth but, rather, think that they've already found it and that's the way God wants it. They are ignorant not because they want to be ignorant but because they don't know they are ignorant. We have to teach them.

 

[Samael_Khan]

There may be other less sinister reasons. Maybe they haven't been trained to struggle to discover truth but, rather, think that they've already found it and that's the way God wants it. They are ignorant not because they want to be ignorant but because they don't know they are ignorant. We have to teach them.

I think what you mention is also part of it. People in general are not trained to think critically. But there is also the emotional element which plays a big role.