Christian - Baptism

[Baerly]

This is a very short,but good lesson.

When God and I Do Not Agree:

http://seektrueunity.org/articles/mb/When%20God%20And%20I%20Dont%
20Agree.htm

in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

That particular interpretation doesn't ring true for me. Jesus speaks through his Church in both I Cor. and John...as well as through the doctrine of the Church. For centuries, the Church has stated that salvation has already been won for us.

Baerly says - I noticed you said FOR ME. IN OTHER WORDS YOU REJECT WHAT (MARK16:16) VERSE SAYS. (1Cor.1:10) says to speak the same thing (MARK 16:16) says. (John 2:5) gives us the attitude to which every person shold have.WE should do whatever Jesus says.


Sojourner -What is the "proper" way to understand this verse? How do you know?

Baerly says - the proper understanding of (Mark 16:16) is as follows:
Believe + BE Baptized = Salvation. Even a child could understand this according to (2Tim.3:14-17)

Sojourner -The word for baptism does seem to indicate immersion. But it's a cultural thing. In that culture, people bathed in order to get clean. In our culture, most of us shower to get clean -- we sprinkle ourselves. I think it's the act of "getting clean" spiritually, and not the method that is important.

BAERLY says -What does (Acts 8:38,39) say? Here we find the BIBLICAL EXAMPLE of HOW to batpize a person. Who is going to be arrogant enough to CHANGE (or WREST) the word of God (2Peter 3:16). When it comes to eternity i want to do as the Lord said,not what some man who is NOT INSPIRED trys to tell me. The lord said to be immersed acording to (Acts 8:38,39) (1Cor.14:37). Whatever we find that the apostles wrote are the commandments of the Lord.


Sojourner -WE learn that it's not God's word that changes, but our interpretation of God's word, as that word interacts with us culturally. We also learn that, failing to keep an open mind and a discerning heart is disastrous.

BAERLY says - Correct, our interpretation must align with the word of God TO SPEAK THE SAME THING (1COR.1:8-10). CULTURE DOES NOT CHANGE THE WORD OF GOD. We are to keep a good and honest heart concerning the word of God, NOT to the OPINIONS of a man. We learn this from (Prov.14:12) and (Jer.10:23).

We are to TEST EVERY spirit to see if they are of God or not according to (1John 4:1-6). We are to walk after the commandments of God and reject anyone and their teaching who oppose the word of God (2John 6-11). So we are NOT to have an open mind to just anything being taught, ONLY to that which harmonizes with the bible (Phil3:16).
We are to speak as the oracles of God (1Peter 4:11)

The bible has given us all things pertaining to life nad godliness (2Peter 1:3)

That message was ONCE DELIVERED (Jude 3). Notice it says once. Notice also that delivered is passed tense. In other words the message was delivered once,and it was all delivered to the apostles of the first century (John 14:26 ; 16:13). They wrote the message down and it became our bible.


in love Baerly

seektrueuntiy.com

 

[Baerly]

I want to commend you Soujourner for looking into (Acts 8:38,39). I could tell by your last post you have been looking into the perfect law of God (James 1:25) (Gal.6:1,2). Surely we want to be transformed by the law of God (Rom.12:2).

Question: Would changing the way of baptizing people from the example of (Acts 8:38,39) be apart of what the scriptures below teach us not to do? Of Course it would

Please notice in the scriptures below what the word of God is telling us.


Galatians 1:6-10




6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.




2 Peter 2:1



1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.




Colossians 2:8



8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.




John 12:43



43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.




Romans 16:17



17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

Sorry about the way the last post came out. I hope to figure out how to post better before long. If your seeking truth,check out the sites below. Baerly

seektrueunity.com

missionprinting.us

thebiblespeaks.com

:yes:

 

[XAAX]

This question comes out of an other forum. Is baptism necessary for salvation? Or is it just a demonstration of your faith? What do you think?

Some denominations require it, some see it as a cleansing, some dont use it at all...It all comes from how that particular group interprets the story from the bible...

 

[Baerly]

seektrueunity.com

seektrueunity.com

 

[sojourner]

Baerly says - the proper understanding of (Mark 16:16) is as follows:
Believe + BE Baptized = Salvation. Even a child could understand this according to (2Tim.3:14-17)

then, why have so many of those who stand in authoritative succession to the Apostles understood it differently?

i want to do as the Lord said,not what some man who is NOT INSPIRED trys to tell me

How do you know these people are not inspired? Many people in the Church believe that they are inspired.

CULTURE DOES NOT CHANGE THE WORD OF GOD.

But it does change how we understand and apply the word of God.

Whatever we find that the apostles wrote are the commandments of the Lord.

What did the Apostles (other than Paul) write?
What about the faith and doctrine statements of the successors to the Apostles?
Is not revelation ongoing?

So we are NOT to have an open mind to just anything being taught, ONLY to that which harmonizes with the bible (Phil3:16)

OK. I agree with that, insofar as such does not hinder one from approaching God.

Let me ask you a couple of questions: Suppose an "unbeliever" suddenly believed and desired baptism. Suppose the only water available to that person was contained in a half-pint water bottle. Would God reject the pouring of that water on that person's head as true baptism?

Further suppose that the person had no water available at all, at the point of conversion. Then suppose that a huge cactus suddenly fell over on the person, effecting that person's death. Would God condemn that person for not being "properly immersed" in water?

Where do the Biblical concepts of love, forbearance and mercy come into play here?

 

[Baerly]

1.then, why have so many of those who stand in authoritative succession to the Apostles understood it differently?

1. Baerly - REGARDING (MARK 16:16) - Ah, Here is where we really find out WHY things have went so wrong. The apostles of the first century were called by Jesus himself. Each apostle had to be an eyewitness to even be an apostle according to (1John 1:1-3). That is a qualification that no one can deny. There has been NO EYEWITNESSES since the apostle Paul. Because of this reason there cannot be any apostles today. Even if men ,or a group,or council,claim there are. We must prove all things according to (1Thess.5:22). For there to be apostles they MUST have seen Jesus. This qualification of being an eyewitness cannot be passed down to another person. In other words if a person is an eyewitness to a wreck,he cannot send someone else to testify to what happened for him. ONLY the eyewitness can tell what they had seen,heard,and touched as (1John 1:1-3) tells us.

WHY DO THEY UNDERSTAND IT SO DIFFERENTLY? Truth is that these men do not agree with what the bible teaches (1Cor.1:10-13) (Phil.2:5). They have made up rules that they want to abide by (Phil.3:16). They have actually rejected what Jesus said (John 12:48) (2Tim.4:3,4) .

There is not a verse in the bible which tells us that there are any successors to the first century apostles. Oh, some will claim that is the case,but read the scriptures carefully and see if that is really what that, or any verse is teaching (Acts 17:11). Many go to (2Tim.2:2) and claim this is what this verse is teaching,but it only tells us to learn the gospel (good news) and teach it to others. It say NOTHING about successors to the apostles,does it?

It reminds me of what (Rom.10:1-3) says - For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Just as the apostle Paul wrote these words with love in his heart for those people,I do the same today. I hope they repent and turn to God (Luke 13:3).

2. How do you know these people are not inspired? Many people in the Church believe that they are inspired.

2. Are they inspired just because certain people claim them to be inspired? As you read my response keep in mind what (GAl.1:6-9) says. Even if an angel preaches any other gospel than that which we have preached unto you LET HIM BE ACCURSED.

Let me go to scriptures and prove another way there cannot be apostles today,or even miracles today. In (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18) we learn a very important principle. We learn that the GIFTS of doing miracles,tongues,miraclulous knowledge,etc. could ONLY be passed on to other BY THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES HANDS. This is very important to our discussion, because if the only way the GIFTS could be passed on is by an apostle, and the apostles died around the end of the first century. We can conclude that it is not possible to have apostles or miracles today. Why is that? Because the only way the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Miracles) could be passed on to others is by the laying on of the apostles hands (ACTS 6:6 ; 8:18).

If they are really successors to the aposltes,they must be able to do the miracles they did according to (2Cor.12:12) (1Cor.2:4) (Mark 16:17-20) (Heb.2:3,4). The miracles confirm the person and the words they speak (Mark16:20). Do you know anyone who can drink deadly poison and live? Have you ever seen anybody walk on water? Have you ever seen anybody raise the dead? I haven't either.That is because it does not happen today. It ceased somewhere around the end of the first century (1Cor.13:10). I realize many CLAIM to do miracles,but it always seems to happen of where there are no eyewitnesses. THOSE MIRACLES THAT DID HAPPEN IN THE BIBLE ARE WRITTTEN DOWN TO HELP US BELIEVE (JOHN 20:30,31).That is all we need today.

When it comes to miracles,I usually leave people with this thought.We read in (Luke 16:19-31) that Abraham told the rich man - neither will they be persuaded ,though one be rose from the dead (Luke 16:31). This is powerful testimony.
in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

But it does change how we understand and apply the word of God.

Baerly - When culture changes us more than the biblical principles we find within the bible,we are being conformed to the thinking of the world (1John 2:15-17),Rather than being transformed by the word of God (Rom.12:2). There is a great difference. Some who think they are living (and working) for God have been deceived (2Thess.2:3,10-12)). This happened to Saul before he became the apostle Paul. He said "I have lived in all good conscience before GOD until this day" (Acts 23:1). The fact that he thought he was doing good,all the while he was persecuting the church, did not change the fact he was working against God (Acts 9:5).

Many today think they are walking in the light because their conscience is clear,but the bible tells us all the while it is not within man to direct his steps (Jer.10:23). So we must make sure we accept what we find within the bible as it is, without change,without editing it, no subtraction, no addition, then and only then can we please God (1Thess.4:1-3). To get rid of the devil Jesus continually said IT IS WRITTEN (MT.4:4,7,10). It would do us good to be able to say the same thing. We just need to make sure we are quoting from the new testamnet (Heb.8:8-13).

What did the Apostles (other than Paul) write?

Baerly - (1Cor.14:37) is a principle that applies to what all the apostles wrote. That is why we read that the Holy Spirit was going to bring back to the apostles rememberance all the things Jesus said to the apostles while Jesus was with them (John 14:26 ; 16:13). This was so they could preach the word and write the message down for us to have throughout time. God has seen fit to give us the bible. I believe that is the power of God according to (Mt 22:29).

What about the faith and doctrine statements of the successors to the Apostles?

I addressed this in an above question. There are no apostles today according to the bible. The apostle Paul said he done miracles before the people (2Cor.12:12) (1Cor.2:4). No miracles are being done today like those in the first century. I see no dead people being raised from the grave,no one walking on water,etc. And if it was done the media would make a big tadoo about it.

Remember what (GAl.1:6-9) says. Then think about what people are teaching that cannot be found within the bible,or even flat out contradicts the bible (John 12:48). Who are we seeking to please men or God (Gal.1:10)? That question needs to ask of every person.


Is not revelation ongoing?

NO NEW REVELATION GOING ON TODAY. Jesus said that the revelation of God was ONCE DELIVERED (Jude 3). Notice the word delivered is in the PAST TENSE. It has already been done. Then notice in (2Peter 1:3) it says that God has given us (all) things pertaining to life and godliness. It is (all) found within the bible (1Cor.4:6) (Rev.22:18.19) (Deut.4:2). We are not to add or take from it (the bible). Notice the word (ALL) in (2Peter 1:3). If I give you (all) the money I got, can I give you any more? No, cause I already gave you (ALL) of it. People seem to have a problem with the word (ALL).

In (1Cor.13:10) we are told that when that which is perfect is come that which is in part shall be done away. The Perfect is refering to the (Completed revelation of God). Remember what (John 14:26 ; 16:13) says? The Holy Spirit was going to bring back how much of what Jesus said to the apostles? (ALL THINGS), So the apostles got (all) the message in their lifetime according to these verses. All they had to do then is write it down in letters to christians and send it to each city (1Cor.4:17).

That which is in part which was going to be done away with was the miraculous GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. The Gifts (miraculous) were not to last throughout all time. They were only used to confirm the person speaking was sent from God,and to confirm the message was sent from God (Mark16:17-20) (Heb2:3,4). But now we have the bible and we can do as the bereans in (Acts 17:11) (John 5:39). They had no bible back then,so when they seen and heard the person doing miracles and preaching they knew this guy was sent from God. Isn't that exactly what Nichodemus said to Jesus (John 3:2)? Can you see anyone doing those things today? NO.

in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

OK. I agree with that, insofar as such does not hinder one from approaching God.

Baerly - Now your putting conditions upon how you will accept the word of God. I would be very coreful about that. Ever heard of Naaman (2Kings 5)?

-It's a misunderstanding that people can come to God in any way they wish.I know this seems harsh, but it is according to the word of God. Take for instance worship, many think as long as they dress up and go to a building and worship in their own way, it will be accepted by God. But the bible says to worship according to spirit and truth (John 4:24). If a person does not worship in the right attitude (Spirit) and according to truth (the New Testamnet law of God), God will not accept their worship (Rom. 10:1-3).

Question: Did God accept the worship of Caine? NO (1John 3:12)
Question: Did God accept the worship of Nabab and Abihu? NO (Lev.10:1-3)
Question: Would God have accepted the worship of Simon if he had not repented and prayed for forgiveness? (Acts 8:13-24)? NO

I am reminded of what (2Chron.7:14) says - If my people ,which are called by my name,shall humble themselves,and pray,and seek my face,and turn from their wicked ways ; THEN will I hear from heaven,and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Notice all the conditions in the above verse? The forgiveness of God is conditional. We must meet the requirements (stipulations) God sets,or we will not be forgiven. I find SIX qualifications in the above verse. How many do you see? How many can we omit and still be forgiven? I do understand this is an O.T.verse,but the same principles are found in the New Testament Law. He that doeth righteousness is righteous (1John 3:7). He that doeth truth cometh to the light (John 3:21) (1John 1:7-9). What Jesus is saying is, if you refuse to meet my requirements, then you are refusing salvation (Luke 7:30) (Acts 13:46) (John 12:48) (1John 1:6).

So according to the scripturers we just looked at,WHO is it that hinders us from coming to God? Is it not the one who refuses truth? Is it not the one who is to full of pride to do what Jesus asks them to do? Isn't it ourselves? The truth is ever before us each day and according to (2Tim.3:14-17) even a child can understand it. Why can't we? Maybe we do not like the message (2Thess.2:10-12). Maybe we have been deceived (2Thess.2:3).

I am reminded of (Titus 1:15) which says -Unto the pure, all things are pure,but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure,BUT EVEN THEIR MINDS AND CONSCIENCE IS DEFILED. They profess to know God,but in works they deny him, being abominable,and disobedient,and unto every good work reprobate (2;1) BUT speak thou the things which become SOUND DOCTRINE.

Jesus is telling us to get it right. Do his commandments (John 14:15,21 ; 10,14). So it is not I that is placing CONDITIONS upon the follower of Christ.

Sojourner -Let me ask you a couple of questions: Suppose an "unbeliever" suddenly believed and desired baptism. Suppose the only water available to that person was contained in a half-pint water bottle. Would God reject the pouring of that water on that person's head as true baptism?

Baerly - It is written, He that believeth and is Baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). We learn in (1Peter 3:21) that water baptism saves. We are given the example as to HOW to PROPERLY baptize an individual in (Acts 8:38,39). And remember that Jesus said he that rejecteth me and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him;THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Now we know God cannot tell a lie (Titus 1:2). So God will judge us according to our deeds (2Cor,5:10). If a person is not baptized according to the above verses, you tell me using the word of God and not your emotions, will the person be someone who obeyed the will of God? (Heb.5:8,9) (Acts 10:34,35).

WE can only be saved by truth (John 17:17). It is only in truth that one can be saved. When one changes the New Testament Will of Jesus, What does (Galation 1:6-9) say? If we change (or PERVERT) the gospel, it is no longer a gospel which has the powere to save. Think about Naaman in (2Kings 5). Would Naaman have been cleansed of leprosy if he had only poured a bottle of water over his head? Notice Naaman got glad after he got mad and decided he was going to go get in that ole muddy Jordan river,I WONDER WHY?

Sojourner -Further suppose that the person had no water available at all, at the point of conversion. Then suppose that a huge cactus suddenly fell over on the person, effecting that person's death. Would God condemn that person for not being "properly immersed" in water?

Baerly I refer you to the above verses. What about all the time of this persons life up to this point? It sounds like this person has refused to obey God to this point in his life.Whose fault is that? (2Tim.3;15)

Sojourner -Where do the Biblical concepts of love, forbearance and mercy come into play here?

Baerly -
*Love -When Jesus made the world and sent his son to die.(John 3:16),then by grace gave us a law to serve him by. He told us to do some things and not to do others (Titus 2:11,12).
*Forbearance- When he did not destroy us a soon a we sinned (Rom 3:23). We were innocent till then (Ezexiel 18:20).
*Mercy - When God continues to allow us time to repent and come to him (John 6:44,45). When he washses our sins away when we are baptized like he said (Acts 8:38,39), for the reason he said, for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16), to be baptized into Christ, (Gal.3:27), to be saved (1Peter 3:21), to be Christians, no more and no less (Acts 11:26) (Acts 4:12), When he gave us a LAW to obey so we would know what he wants us to do to please him (Heb.8:8-13) (Gal.6:1,2) (James 1:25).

in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

Think about this if you will.

God can have NO PART WITH SIN (Isa.59:1,2).

So it is clear that God can have no part with man until mans sins are remitted.

The bible says mans sins are washed away at the point of water baptism (Acts 22:16) (Acts 2:38),

The bible says man is baptized in water for the REMISSION (to remit) of sins (Acts 2:38) (Acts 8:38,39).

If people would understand the principle found in (Isa.59:1,2), it would solve much of the confusion in the religious world. It is this verse which makes (Acts 22:16) carry so much weight.

Understanding this bible principle can help us to realize why the bible says baptism SAVES (1Peter 3:21).

Another reason is that all blessings are found (IN CHRIST).

The alien sinner is outside of Christ and without hope (Eph.2;12).

All blessings refers to redemption(Eph.1:7), no condemnation (Rom.8:1), being a new creature (2Cor.5:17), salvation (2Tim.2:10), eternal life (1John 5:11), and prayer (James 5:13,16). A person outside of Christ is without these blessings (Eph.2:12).

Man cannot have any part of these blessings until his sins are washed away (or remitted) (Acts 22:16) . Because God can have no part with SIN (Isa.59:1,2)

There are ONLY two places where the word of God tells us HOW to get INTO CHRIST. We find those two places in (Rom.6:3) and (Gal.3:27). That is if a person has a reliable translation.

We must remember to seek out all God says about a particular subject BEFORE we draw our conclusion.

in love Baerly

 

[Scuba Pete]

What seems to underlies this whole discussion are the different approaches to getting right with God.

The Rich Young ruler asked, and went away sad. He wasn't willing to do ALL that was requested. I would hasten to point out that baptism never came up in this discussion. Why? Obviously he wasn't ready to relenquish the "gods" in his life and so baptism would have meant NOTHING.

Too many are looking for a legalistic approach to becoming a disciple. Merely being baptised without getting your heart right, is just as futile as "praying Jesus into your heart" (you can't find that in the scriptures). Look at this scripture and note my emboldening:

I Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. NIV

I would suggest that if you are fighting baptism, then you aren't ready for it. Look at the condition of the hearts of the first disciples who learned about baptism:

Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" NIV

When you are "cut to the heart", then you are open to doing ANYTHING to get right with God. You stop trying to make God meet your terms and gladly accept his. This is Godly sorrow and not some legalistic approach to becoming a Christian.

II COrinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. NIV

Baptism is essential, but without this Godly Sorrow and a true appeal of your conscience, it is merely getting wet. God wants your HEART. Once he has that, the mechanics are simple.

 

[sojourner]

1.then, why have so many of those who stand in authoritative succession to the Apostles understood it differently?

1. Baerly - REGARDING (MARK 16:16) - Ah, Here is where we really find out WHY things have went so wrong. The apostles of the first century were called by Jesus himself. Each apostle had to be an eyewitness to even be an apostle according to (1John 1:1-3). That is a qualification that no one can deny. There has been NO EYEWITNESSES since the apostle Paul. Because of this reason there cannot be any apostles today. Even if men ,or a group,or council,claim there are. We must prove all things according to (1Thess.5:22). For there to be apostles they MUST have seen Jesus. This qualification of being an eyewitness cannot be passed down to another person. In other words if a person is an eyewitness to a wreck,he cannot send someone else to testify to what happened for him. ONLY the eyewitness can tell what they had seen,heard,and touched as (1John 1:1-3) tells us.

WHY DO THEY UNDERSTAND IT SO DIFFERENTLY? Truth is that these men do not agree with what the bible teaches (1Cor.1:10-13) (Phil.2:5). They have made up rules that they want to abide by (Phil.3:16). They have actually rejected what Jesus said (John 12:48) (2Tim.4:3,4) .

There is not a verse in the bible which tells us that there are any successors to the first century apostles. Oh, some will claim that is the case,but read the scriptures carefully and see if that is really what that, or any verse is teaching (Acts 17:11). Many go to (2Tim.2:2) and claim this is what this verse is teaching,but it only tells us to learn the gospel (good news) and teach it to others. It say NOTHING about successors to the apostles,does it?

It reminds me of what (Rom.10:1-3) says - For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Just as the apostle Paul wrote these words with love in his heart for those people,I do the same today. I hope they repent and turn to God (Luke 13:3).

2. How do you know these people are not inspired? Many people in the Church believe that they are inspired.

2. Are they inspired just because certain people claim them to be inspired? As you read my response keep in mind what (GAl.1:6-9) says. Even if an angel preaches any other gospel than that which we have preached unto you LET HIM BE ACCURSED.

Let me go to scriptures and prove another way there cannot be apostles today,or even miracles today. In (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18) we learn a very important principle. We learn that the GIFTS of doing miracles,tongues,miraclulous knowledge,etc. could ONLY be passed on to other BY THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES HANDS. This is very important to our discussion, because if the only way the GIFTS could be passed on is by an apostle, and the apostles died around the end of the first century. We can conclude that it is not possible to have apostles or miracles today. Why is that? Because the only way the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Miracles) could be passed on to others is by the laying on of the apostles hands (ACTS 6:6 ; 8:18).

If they are really successors to the aposltes,they must be able to do the miracles they did according to (2Cor.12:12) (1Cor.2:4) (Mark 16:17-20) (Heb.2:3,4). The miracles confirm the person and the words they speak (Mark16:20). Do you know anyone who can drink deadly poison and live? Have you ever seen anybody walk on water? Have you ever seen anybody raise the dead? I haven't either.That is because it does not happen today. It ceased somewhere around the end of the first century (1Cor.13:10). I realize many CLAIM to do miracles,but it always seems to happen of where there are no eyewitnesses. THOSE MIRACLES THAT DID HAPPEN IN THE BIBLE ARE WRITTTEN DOWN TO HELP US BELIEVE (JOHN 20:30,31).That is all we need today.

When it comes to miracles,I usually leave people with this thought.We read in (Luke 16:19-31) that Abraham told the rich man - neither will they be persuaded ,though one be rose from the dead (Luke 16:31). This is powerful testimony.
in love Baerly

1) Your polemic obfuscates the point of my question. Most Christians in the Church recognize an historic episcopate, which they affirm as standing in succession to the authority of the Apostles. It exists...it is, just as the sun is. One can argue the existence of the sun, but that doesn't change the fact that the sun exists. These people, while not serving the same function of being "sent out" as the Apostles, do serve the same function of authority. That's a fact. And these people recognize the legitimacy of a sprinkling or pouring baptism.

Your premise is based upon a stance of sola scriptura, which I reject as an invalid stance. The doctrinal statements of the Church, in my belief, must be authoritative.

2) No. They are inspired because they carry the authority of the Body of Christ -- not because "some people think they are" inspired.

 

[sojourner]

But it does change how we understand and apply the word of God.

Baerly - When culture changes us more than the biblical principles we find within the bible,we are being conformed to the thinking of the world (1John 2:15-17),Rather than being transformed by the word of God (Rom.12:2). There is a great difference. Some who think they are living (and working) for God have been deceived (2Thess.2:3,10-12)). This happened to Saul before he became the apostle Paul. He said "I have lived in all good conscience before GOD until this day" (Acts 23:1). The fact that he thought he was doing good,all the while he was persecuting the church, did not change the fact he was working against God (Acts 9:5).

Many today think they are walking in the light because their conscience is clear,but the bible tells us all the while it is not within man to direct his steps (Jer.10:23). So we must make sure we accept what we find within the bible as it is, without change,without editing it, no subtraction, no addition, then and only then can we please God (1Thess.4:1-3). To get rid of the devil Jesus continually said IT IS WRITTEN (MT.4:4,7,10). It would do us good to be able to say the same thing. We just need to make sure we are quoting from the new testamnet (Heb.8:8-13).

What did the Apostles (other than Paul) write?

Baerly - (1Cor.14:37) is a principle that applies to what all the apostles wrote. That is why we read that the Holy Spirit was going to bring back to the apostles rememberance all the things Jesus said to the apostles while Jesus was with them (John 14:26 ; 16:13). This was so they could preach the word and write the message down for us to have throughout time. God has seen fit to give us the bible. I believe that is the power of God according to (Mt 22:29).

What about the faith and doctrine statements of the successors to the Apostles?

I addressed this in an above question. There are no apostles today according to the bible. The apostle Paul said he done miracles before the people (2Cor.12:12) (1Cor.2:4). No miracles are being done today like those in the first century. I see no dead people being raised from the grave,no one walking on water,etc. And if it was done the media would make a big tadoo about it.

Remember what (GAl.1:6-9) says. Then think about what people are teaching that cannot be found within the bible,or even flat out contradicts the bible (John 12:48). Who are we seeking to please men or God (Gal.1:10)? That question needs to ask of every person.


Is not revelation ongoing?

NO NEW REVELATION GOING ON TODAY. Jesus said that the revelation of God was ONCE DELIVERED (Jude 3). Notice the word delivered is in the PAST TENSE. It has already been done. Then notice in (2Peter 1:3) it says that God has given us (all) things pertaining to life and godliness. It is (all) found within the bible (1Cor.4:6) (Rev.22:18.19) (Deut.4:2). We are not to add or take from it (the bible). Notice the word (ALL) in (2Peter 1:3). If I give you (all) the money I got, can I give you any more? No, cause I already gave you (ALL) of it. People seem to have a problem with the word (ALL).

In (1Cor.13:10) we are told that when that which is perfect is come that which is in part shall be done away. The Perfect is refering to the (Completed revelation of God). Remember what (John 14:26 ; 16:13) says? The Holy Spirit was going to bring back how much of what Jesus said to the apostles? (ALL THINGS), So the apostles got (all) the message in their lifetime according to these verses. All they had to do then is write it down in letters to christians and send it to each city (1Cor.4:17).

That which is in part which was going to be done away with was the miraculous GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. The Gifts (miraculous) were not to last throughout all time. They were only used to confirm the person speaking was sent from God,and to confirm the message was sent from God (Mark16:17-20) (Heb2:3,4). But now we have the bible and we can do as the bereans in (Acts 17:11) (John 5:39). They had no bible back then,so when they seen and heard the person doing miracles and preaching they knew this guy was sent from God. Isn't that exactly what Nichodemus said to Jesus (John 3:2)? Can you see anyone doing those things today? NO.

in love Baerly

1) We live within our own cultures. They form the basis for our expectations and inform our understanding. Your own interpretations of scripture (as well as mine) are based upon that cloud of that bias we all carry with us when we engage in Biblical interpretation. Even the Biblical writers wrote out of the understanding of their own culture, and through their own cloud of bias. The main difference here between me and you is that I recognize the cloud of bias. You do not.

Again, the issue of understanding what is acceptable as baptism has more to do with cultural bias than it does with Biblical principle.

2) I didn't ask whether there were any Apostles today. I asked "what did the Apostles write?" You seem to think that the Apostles wrote the NT. It cannot be conclusively shown that any of the Apostles wrote the gospels, for example. What did the Apostles write?

3) Once again, the issue isn't whether we have Apostles today. The term I used was "successors to the Apostles." so... what about their faith and doctrinal statements? Or is the Church (the Body of Christ) unable to state any matter of faith or doctrine with the authority of Christ (whose Body we are)?

4) So, God doesn't show God's self to us anymore? That stands in direct opposition to the baptismal directive that we are to "seek and serve Christ in all persons."

 

[sojourner]

OK. I agree with that, insofar as such does not hinder one from approaching God.

Baerly - Now your putting conditions upon how you will accept the word of God. I would be very coreful about that. Ever heard of Naaman (2Kings 5)?

-It's a misunderstanding that people can come to God in any way they wish.I know this seems harsh, but it is according to the word of God. Take for instance worship, many think as long as they dress up and go to a building and worship in their own way, it will be accepted by God. But the bible says to worship according to spirit and truth (John 4:24). If a person does not worship in the right attitude (Spirit) and according to truth (the New Testamnet law of God), God will not accept their worship (Rom. 10:1-3).

Question: Did God accept the worship of Caine? NO (1John 3:12)
Question: Did God accept the worship of Nabab and Abihu? NO (Lev.10:1-3)
Question: Would God have accepted the worship of Simon if he had not repented and prayed for forgiveness? (Acts 8:13-24)? NO

I am reminded of what (2Chron.7:14) says - If my people ,which are called by my name,shall humble themselves,and pray,and seek my face,and turn from their wicked ways ; THEN will I hear from heaven,and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Notice all the conditions in the above verse? The forgiveness of God is conditional. We must meet the requirements (stipulations) God sets,or we will not be forgiven. I find SIX qualifications in the above verse. How many do you see? How many can we omit and still be forgiven? I do understand this is an O.T.verse,but the same principles are found in the New Testament Law. He that doeth righteousness is righteous (1John 3:7). He that doeth truth cometh to the light (John 3:21) (1John 1:7-9). What Jesus is saying is, if you refuse to meet my requirements, then you are refusing salvation (Luke 7:30) (Acts 13:46) (John 12:48) (1John 1:6).

So according to the scripturers we just looked at,WHO is it that hinders us from coming to God? Is it not the one who refuses truth? Is it not the one who is to full of pride to do what Jesus asks them to do? Isn't it ourselves? The truth is ever before us each day and according to (2Tim.3:14-17) even a child can understand it. Why can't we? Maybe we do not like the message (2Thess.2:10-12). Maybe we have been deceived (2Thess.2:3).

I am reminded of (Titus 1:15) which says -Unto the pure, all things are pure,but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure,BUT EVEN THEIR MINDS AND CONSCIENCE IS DEFILED. They profess to know God,but in works they deny him, being abominable,and disobedient,and unto every good work reprobate (2;1) BUT speak thou the things which become SOUND DOCTRINE.

Jesus is telling us to get it right. Do his commandments (John 14:15,21 ; 10,14). So it is not I that is placing CONDITIONS upon the follower of Christ.

Sojourner -Let me ask you a couple of questions: Suppose an "unbeliever" suddenly believed and desired baptism. Suppose the only water available to that person was contained in a half-pint water bottle. Would God reject the pouring of that water on that person's head as true baptism?

Baerly - It is written, He that believeth and is Baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). We learn in (1Peter 3:21) that water baptism saves. We are given the example as to HOW to PROPERLY baptize an individual in (Acts 8:38,39). And remember that Jesus said he that rejecteth me and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him;THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Now we know God cannot tell a lie (Titus 1:2). So God will judge us according to our deeds (2Cor,5:10). If a person is not baptized according to the above verses, you tell me using the word of God and not your emotions, will the person be someone who obeyed the will of God? (Heb.5:8,9) (Acts 10:34,35).

WE can only be saved by truth (John 17:17). It is only in truth that one can be saved. When one changes the New Testament Will of Jesus, What does (Galation 1:6-9) say? If we change (or PERVERT) the gospel, it is no longer a gospel which has the powere to save. Think about Naaman in (2Kings 5). Would Naaman have been cleansed of leprosy if he had only poured a bottle of water over his head? Notice Naaman got glad after he got mad and decided he was going to go get in that ole muddy Jordan river,I WONDER WHY?

Sojourner -Further suppose that the person had no water available at all, at the point of conversion. Then suppose that a huge cactus suddenly fell over on the person, effecting that person's death. Would God condemn that person for not being "properly immersed" in water?

Baerly I refer you to the above verses. What about all the time of this persons life up to this point? It sounds like this person has refused to obey God to this point in his life.Whose fault is that? (2Tim.3;15)

Sojourner -Where do the Biblical concepts of love, forbearance and mercy come into play here?

Baerly -
*Love -When Jesus made the world and sent his son to die.(John 3:16),then by grace gave us a law to serve him by. He told us to do some things and not to do others (Titus 2:11,12).
*Forbearance- When he did not destroy us a soon a we sinned (Rom 3:23). We were innocent till then (Ezexiel 18:20).
*Mercy - When God continues to allow us time to repent and come to him (John 6:44,45). When he washses our sins away when we are baptized like he said (Acts 8:38,39), for the reason he said, for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16), to be baptized into Christ, (Gal.3:27), to be saved (1Peter 3:21), to be Christians, no more and no less (Acts 11:26) (Acts 4:12), When he gave us a LAW to obey so we would know what he wants us to do to please him (Heb.8:8-13) (Gal.6:1,2) (James 1:25).

in love Baerly

No, it's not a misunderstanding. Everyone (even you) approaches God in his or her own way. You're fooling yourself if you think they don't. That's an imperitive of our free will. Love does not coerce -- God does not coerce.

You assert in the next sentence that your position is based upon "the Word of God." I maintain that it's the Word of God as you interpret it. I (and others) interpret that Word differently. Is Christ not the Word of God? Can the forbearance, the mercy, the love of Christ be found in the sort of "zero-tolerance" condemnation you propose? I don't think so. How can you say of me (or of anyone else, for that matter) that we don't worship in spirit and in truth? How is "our" worship any worse than "your worship? What critierion are you using to make that determination? One based upon your understanding? What about my understanding? What about someone else's?

I do not accept that the verses you cite are in any way meant to be taken as examples for how we, in this time and place, should understand God's relationship with us. We can get a pretty good idea of how the ancient Hebrews understood their relationship with God, and we can use that knowledge to inform our own understanding of our own relationship with God -- but the relationships are different from each other. We aren't ancient Hebrews -- we're modern Americans. That changes the playing field.

How can you say that the forgiveness of God is conditional? Forgiveness comes out of love, which is clearly unconditional.

In what way can I tell you, using the Word of God, that baptism is that formulaic and picayune? The love of Christ is broader, and deeper, and higher than that. How can one approach the Word of God and not bring one's whole self (including one's emotions?) Approaching the Word of God is not merely (or primarily) a matter of the intellect, but must include the heart, as well. The scripture is full of God having pity, taking compassion, acting with love. These are all matters of the heart, are they not?

We can only be saved by truth? I thought we could only be saved by the grace of God. What an odd concept!

When we turn toward God, does God remember our past sins? That's not the Biblical example. God says that God will not remember our sins any more. God is not a grudge-holder. Furthermore, the issue of sin no longer matters. Sin is our initiative, but life and forgiveness and grace and salvation are God's initiative...and God has already taken that initiative. If we turn to God, we accept that grace that is offered. In what way does this fictitious grudge of God enter into that dynamic?

 

[Baerly]

My friend sojourner, If you do not accept the bible as our spiritual guide, then we cannot ever agree. You and I do not even agree who are, and who are not Christians because we are both using differrent STANDARDS.

The bible says to prove all things (1Thess.5:21). How do people who teach things which are NOT in the bible do this? Do they accept certain teachings because certain people say to accept it? If so Is that proving all things? just something to think about.

in love Baerly

 

[sojourner]

My friend sojourner, If you do not accept the bible as our spiritual guide, then we cannot ever agree. You and I do not even agree who are, and who are not Christians because we are both using differrent STANDARDS.

The bible says to prove all things (1Thess.5:21). How do people who teach things which are NOT in the bible do this? Do they accept certain teachings because certain people say to accept it? If so Is that proving all things? just something to think about.

in love Baerly

Well...that's where the issue of interpretation comes into play. For example (and I don't wish to open this as a new can of worms -- merely to use it as example), most find the doctrine of the Trinity to be clearly stated in the Bible. Some do not. It all has to do with how we interpret the Bible, as to whether or not a certain thing speaks in a certain way to you.

That's why I insist that the doctrinal authority of the Church can be so helpful. Those people who've prayed and studied and spent years in the practice of discerning God's voice, who've been called out of the Church for a special ministry -- those people can (and do) speak authoritatively as to the meaning of scripture. We can use that as a guide for our own understanding (or not) when we come to issues that are not quite crystal-clear (as most of them are not).

I follow the tradition where "those in authority" have said that a sprinkling baptism is valid. That resonates with what I understand to be the the Spirit speaking to me. I find that the Bible talks about the importance and place of baptism, but not necessarily the form. You find different things. That's OK, because we both still follow the same Jesus.

 

[Baerly]

Well...that's where the issue of interpretation comes into play. For example (and I don't wish to open this as a new can of worms -- merely to use it as example), most find the doctrine of the Trinity to be clearly stated in the Bible. Some do not. It all has to do with how we interpret the Bible, as to whether or not a certain thing speaks in a certain way to you.

That's why I insist that the doctrinal authority of the Church can be so helpful. Those people who've prayed and studied and spent years in the practice of discerning God's voice, who've been called out of the Church for a special ministry -- those people can (and do) speak authoritatively as to the meaning of scripture. We can use that as a guide for our own understanding (or not) when we come to issues that are not quite crystal-clear (as most of them are not).

I follow the tradition where "those in authority" have said that a sprinkling baptism is valid. That resonates with what I understand to be the the Spirit speaking to me. I find that the Bible talks about the importance and place of baptism, but not necessarily the form. You find different things. That's OK, because we both still follow the same Jesus.

The authority of which church?

Called out for what special ministry? Where is this in the bible?

The bible says when you (anyone) read the bible we can understand it (Eph.3:3,4).

WE can rightly divide the word of God when we study the bible (2Tim.2:15).

It is not ok for each person to have their own interpretation if it differs from what the bible says according to (Phil.3:16) (1Cor.1:10-13) (John 7:17) (2Thess.3:6,14) (Rom.16:17).

Can one oppose the word of God and still please him? (John 12:48) - No

It is my prayer people will not wait till judgment day to find out what they believe is incorrect. The only time we have to repent is while we are living.

in love Baerly

 

[sojourner]

The authority of which church?

Called out for what special ministry? Where is this in the bible?

The bible says when you (anyone) read the bible we can understand it (Eph.3:3,4).

WE can rightly divide the word of God when we study the bible (2Tim.2:15).

It is not ok for each person to have their own interpretation if it differs from what the bible says according to (Phil.3:16) (1Cor.1:10-13) (John 7:17) (2Thess.3:6,14) (Rom.16:17).

Can one oppose the word of God and still please him? (John 12:48) - No

It is my prayer people will not wait till judgment day to find out what they believe is incorrect. The only time we have to repent is while we are living.

in love Baerly

The authority of which Church? The Church is the Body of Christ. As Christ only has one Body, there is only one Church.

What special ministry? Where is it in the Bible? First of all, read the gospels. You'll find excellent examples of Jesus calling his Apostles out of the world and into a special ministry. Called to be an Apostle and called to be a follower are two different callings. In Acts, we find examples of the Church selecting people for special ministries. For example, the diaconate is such a ministry. Those people whom the Apostles, themselves, selected to replace them are such ministers. The successors to them (in my tradition) are called bishops, and it is they who help us with our Biblical interpretation.

Yes, we have the ability to understand what we read, but what understanding shall we develop? That's where the Tradition of the Church can help provide unity.

What does the Bible say? I might think it says one thing, and you might think it says another thing, when we're both reading the same passages in the same translation. Again, that's where the guidance of the Church can be helpful.

What is the Word of God? The Word of God isn't the Bible, itself. The Word of God is Christ, and the Bible can be considered the Word of God, only as the Bible reveals Christ to us. We shouldn't idolize the Bible.

Believe? Belief is of faith, and faith comes from God. Since faith comes from God, how is it possible for our faith to be "incorrect?"

To put this in context of the topic at hand, the successors to Christ's Apostles have deemed that a sprinkling baptism is efficacious. Since the Church is the Body of Christ, and since I follow him, I also follow the Tradition of the Church. For it is the Church that ultimately reveals Christ to the world.

 

[Scuba Pete]

This is such a legalistic discussion of an expression of the heart that it is almost funny. Funny in an incredibly sad way. Both sides are citing their legal precedents, when they fail to see that this should be a heart affair.

They should'a sprinkled Naamun!