Christian - Baptism

[sojourner]

sojourner writes :-
What "other doctrine" am I teaching? Are you suggesting that God does not finally get God's way? Are you suggesting that God's will can (and shall) be thwarted by humanity?

Baerly writes :-
My friend, your teaching all of humanity will be save, if I am understanding you correctly. That is universalism, I think that is the word.lol That cannot be true if what is taught in (Mt.7:13,14) and (Mt 25:33-46) is truth. And I do believe it to be truth (John 17:17).

in love Baerly

So you think that spiritual dynamics can be reduced to if/then propositions of logic? Universalism is the word, and it's the only one that truly makes sense. This is God's universe, we are all God's beloved children, and God will search for every single one of us until God finds us all. That's what God wants...that's what God will finally get.

Why are you so insistent that some of us must be condemned? What sort of satisfaction do you get from such beliefs? Does it not bother you at all that not all of your brothers and sisters will be with you for eternity? "Oh, well...heh, heh...I guess he's just eternally destroyed. But that's OK, because I'm saved!" That just is not the selflessness that Christ taught.

 

[Baerly]

So you think that spiritual dynamics can be reduced to if/then propositions of logic? Universalism is the word, and it's the only one that truly makes sense. This is God's universe, we are all God's beloved children, and God will search for every single one of us until God finds us all. That's what God wants...that's what God will finally get.

Why are you so insistent that some of us must be condemned? What sort of satisfaction do you get from such beliefs? Does it not bother you at all that not all of your brothers and sisters will be with you for eternity? "Oh, well...heh, heh...I guess he's just eternally destroyed. But that's OK, because I'm saved!" That just is not the selflessness that Christ taught.

My friend do not lay the blame on me. The bible says whosoever will. That means that whosoever won't will be lost (John 14:15,21). Jesus says (IF) ye continue in my word,THEN ye are my disciples (John 8:31).Christ let us know in this verse that we please him ONLY ON THE CONDITION THAT we follow his commandments,that is why he used the word (IF). It is not I that is condemning people to hell, I do not delight in those who would set aside the will of God to do their own will. My friend ,what do you think I am doing on this site? If you will consider the verses I have posted, They teach what I have stated. They do not say that because I interpreted them that way. They clearly teach most people will be lost (Mt 7:13,14) (Mt 25). Why will they be lost? Because they set aside the gospel and taught what the wanted to teach instead of truth (John 17:17) (Gal.1:6-9). The bible says not to teach any other gospel (1Tim.1:3). We are not to even listen to an angel from heaven if they teach any other doctrine. Even that angel is to be cut off from God if they are teaching something that does not harmonize with the bible. I did not say that,Jesus did (GAl.1:6-9) (1Cor.14:37). I am sounding the warning do not be deceived, we can know truth (Ezekiel 3:18) (2Thess.2:3,10) (Luke 1:4) (1John 2:21).

(Mt. 7:23) - Then I wll profess to them,I never knew you, DEPART from me,ye that work iniquity (or lawlessness). This one verse crushes the idea of Universalism.

Will you stand against the word of God till judgment day? Would you have Jesus say these words to you? All because you did not heed the warnings of Jesus and his word (John 12:48).

in love Baerly

 

[sojourner]

My friend do not lay the blame on me. The bible says whosoever will. That means that whosoever won't will be lost (John 14:15,21). Jesus says (IF) ye continue in my word,THEN ye are my disciples (John 8:31).Christ let us know in this verse that we please him ONLY ON THE CONDITION THAT we follow his commandments,that is why he used the word (IF). It is not I that is condemning people to hell, I do not delight in those who would set aside the will of God to do their own will. My friend ,what do you think I am doing on this site? If you will consider the verses I have posted, They teach what I have stated. They do not say that because I interpreted them that way. They clearly teach most people will be lost (Mt 7:13,14) (Mt 25). Why will they be lost? Because they set aside the gospel and taught what the wanted to teach instead of truth (John 17:17) (Gal.1:6-9). The bible says not to teach any other gospel (1Tim.1:3). We are not to even listen to an angel from heaven if they teach any other doctrine. Even that angel is to be cut off from God if they are teaching something that does not harmonize with the bible. I did not say that,Jesus did (GAl.1:6-9) (1Cor.14:37). I am sounding the warning do not be deceived, we can know truth (Ezekiel 3:18) (2Thess.2:3,10) (Luke 1:4) (1John 2:21).

(Mt. 7:23) - Then I wll profess to them,I never knew you, DEPART from me,ye that work iniquity (or lawlessness). This one verse crushes the idea of Universalism.

Will you stand against the word of God till judgment day? Would you have Jesus say these words to you? All because you did not heed the warnings of Jesus and his word (John 12:48).

in love Baerly

The problem is, many atheists I know "follow the commandments" far better than many Christians I know. Many people of other religions follow the tenets of "love God" and "love neighbor" better than many Christians. What does it mean to "continue in my commandments?" You're taking the whole lovely idea of grace and twisting it into something small and picayune, something judgmental rather than something hospitable.

I'm not "standing against the word of God." I shall defend the cause of grace for all adamantly, because that's how I interpret the teachings of Jesus, as we have them in scripture and tradition.

 

[Baerly]

The problem is, many atheists I know "follow the commandments" far better than many Christians I know. Many people of other religions follow the tenets of "love God" and "love neighbor" better than many Christians. What does it mean to "continue in my commandments?" You're taking the whole lovely idea of grace and twisting it into something small and picayune, something judgmental rather than something hospitable.

I'm not "standing against the word of God." I shall defend the cause of grace for all adamantly, because that's how I interpret the teachings of Jesus, as we have them in scripture and tradition.

Question ; Are you teaching the principles found in the bible or are you teaching the commandments of men?

Lets see which your teaching. Only the disciples of Jesus are blessed with his grace. That is upon the condition that they continue in his word (or obey his commandments) ( John 8:31,32 ; 14:15,21 ; 15:10,14) . To continue in his word means to have authorization for all we do in spiritual matters(Col.3:16,17). If we let the words of Christ dwell in us richly and allow them to lead us in all spiritual matters,we are indeed disciples of Jesus. BUT if we reject plain teachings of Jesus,we infact reject the grace of God and salvation (Acts 13:46).

Jesus placed this stipulation (to continue in his words) on those who would follow him. It isnot optional. It is what makes us Christians (Acts 11:26) The grace only covers those who walk in the light of the word of God according to (1John 1:6-9). Those that do not truth (or do not his Commandments) are not going to be blessed with grace. But notice what (1John 1:7) says BUT (IF) we walk in the light. we have fellowship one with another (AND) THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN. Here again the word of God says (IF) you do my commandments (or walk in the light), the blood of Jesus will forgive all your sins. BUT it is upon the condition that you and I keep the covenant we made with our Lord when we became Christians.

We agreed to walk according to the New Testament Covenant (or walk in the light) when we became Christians (Eph.5:8) (1John 1:7). Walking in the light is a phrase which gives us the authority to do what we do as Chritians (Col.3:16). This reminds us we must KNOW what the will of the Lord is (Eph.5:17). It is what makes us followers of Christ. We take on Christ likeness as we look into the New Testament and try to live by the spirit of Jesus (2Cor.3:18) (Rom 12:1,2).

If we are doing things in worship, or in life which is not authorized by the word of God,the grace of God does not cover our sins according to (1John 1:6,7) (Heb.10:25-31) (2Peter 2:21). When we turn from the holy commandments of the Lord we turn from the grace of our Lord. It is our decision (2Peter 2:21). So when poeople tell you we do not need to do anything to be saved Jesus did it all on the cross. It is a lie. I am sorry ,but that is what it is. The bible says in (Acts 2:40) SAVE YOURSELVES. Does that sound like we should do something? Of Course it does.

These are not my thoughts or commandments. They are the very words of Jesus according to (1Cor.14:37). What the apostles wrote were the commandments of the Lord. We must have authorization for all we do in spiritual matters or the grace of God does not cover our sins.

If an athiest does not accept Jesus as the son of God,it matters not what they do. Their works are in vain (Mt 15:9). Our works are only blessed if we are in Christ. How does the bible say we get in Christ (Rom. 6:3,4) and (GAl.3:27). Those are the only two verses I know of that tells us how to get into Christ. That is if your using a reliable translation.

But you are standing against the word of God if your teaching all will be saved. Jesus said they would not (Mt.7:13,14) (Mt 25). Jesus said to speak the same thing (1Cor.1:10). You not agreeing with Jesus,your opposing him and his words (John 12:48). That means that your not the friend of Jesus till you do agree with Jesus.

in love

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

you guys do know that this question has been going on sience the apsoles has all died... i don't thank any of you are going to agree any time soon...

 

[sojourner]

Question ; Are you teaching the principles found in the bible or are you teaching the commandments of men?

Lets see which your teaching. Only the disciples of Jesus are blessed with his grace. That is upon the condition that they continue in his word (or obey his commandments) ( John 8:31,32 ; 14:15,21 ; 15:10,14) . To continue in his word means to have authorization for all we do in spiritual matters(Col.3:16,17). If we let the words of Christ dwell in us richly and allow them to lead us in all spiritual matters,we are indeed disciples of Jesus. BUT if we reject plain teachings of Jesus,we infact reject the grace of God and salvation (Acts 13:46).

Jesus placed this stipulation (to continue in his words) on those who would follow him. It isnot optional. It is what makes us Christians (Acts 11:26) The grace only covers those who walk in the light of the word of God according to (1John 1:6-9). Those that do not truth (or do not his Commandments) are not going to be blessed with grace. But notice what (1John 1:7) says BUT (IF) we walk in the light. we have fellowship one with another (AND) THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN. Here again the word of God says (IF) you do my commandments (or walk in the light), the blood of Jesus will forgive all your sins. BUT it is upon the condition that you and I keep the covenant we made with our Lord when we became Christians.

We agreed to walk according to the New Testament Covenant (or walk in the light) when we became Christians (Eph.5:8) (1John 1:7). Walking in the light is a phrase which gives us the authority to do what we do as Chritians (Col.3:16). This reminds us we must KNOW what the will of the Lord is (Eph.5:17). It is what makes us followers of Christ. We take on Christ likeness as we look into the New Testament and try to live by the spirit of Jesus (2Cor.3:18) (Rom 12:1,2).

If we are doing things in worship, or in life which is not authorized by the word of God,the grace of God does not cover our sins according to (1John 1:6,7) (Heb.10:25-31) (2Peter 2:21). When we turn from the holy commandments of the Lord we turn from the grace of our Lord. It is our decision (2Peter 2:21). So when poeople tell you we do not need to do anything to be saved Jesus did it all on the cross. It is a lie. I am sorry ,but that is what it is. The bible says in (Acts 2:40) SAVE YOURSELVES. Does that sound like we should do something? Of Course it does.

These are not my thoughts or commandments. They are the very words of Jesus according to (1Cor.14:37). What the apostles wrote were the commandments of the Lord. We must have authorization for all we do in spiritual matters or the grace of God does not cover our sins.

If an athiest does not accept Jesus as the son of God,it matters not what they do. Their works are in vain (Mt 15:9). Our works are only blessed if we are in Christ. How does the bible say we get in Christ (Rom. 6:3,4) and (GAl.3:27). Those are the only two verses I know of that tells us how to get into Christ. That is if your using a reliable translation.

But you are standing against the word of God if your teaching all will be saved. Jesus said they would not (Mt.7:13,14) (Mt 25). Jesus said to speak the same thing (1Cor.1:10). You not agreeing with Jesus,your opposing him and his words (John 12:48). That means that your not the friend of Jesus till you do agree with Jesus.

in love

**sigh**

The Pharisees got all myopic with the keeping of Biblical rules and regulations, too...Jesus called them "vipers" and "hypocrites." Grace is much more broad and much more inclusive than you give it credit for.

I guess Jesus never said, "When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." I suppose Paul never said, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god, and [all] are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." I guess God's will isn't, then, as stated in the first letter to Timothy: "This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." I guess God's will is really that most of humanity will be destroyed. But then, what do I know. I'm "not the friend of Jesus." Sucks to be me.

Go back to sleep and enjoy your fantasy.

 

[Baerly]

you guys do know that this question has been going on sience the apsoles has all died... i don't thank any of you are going to agree any time soon...

Hi, you have brought up a good point. But the answere is not for me to agree with sojourner,or even for sojourner to agree with me,rather it is for all of us to understand the will of God And unite upon it (John 7:17) (Eph.3:3,4) (Phil3:16) (1Cor.1:10). We need to learn what will please our Lord and then do it (1Thess.4:1,2).

My friend, that is how we solve this problem (Eph.4:1-5). The denominational world has given up on doing this.They have decided that agreeing to disagree on doctrine is the answere.Then they all claim to be one in mind and spirit (Phil.2:5 ; 3:16). So in reality they decided to agree among themselves,but upon their own terms,in doing so they have decided to establish their own righteousness just like Israel in (Rom.10:1-3). They have not yet united upon the word of God (Eph.4:1-5).

My question is, what will it profit the denominational world if they do not read,understand and then comply with the New Testament will of God? Because each of us will be judged by the New Testament will of the Lord (John 12:48).

in love Baerly

 

[sojourner]

the answere is not for me to agree with sojourner,or even for sojourner to agree with me,rather it is for all of us to understand the will of God And unite upon it

You're absolutely right about that! hear then, the will of God: "This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (I Tim.) It is the will of God that all of us be saved. In what way, then, is the little will of humanity able to thwart the will of God?

See, this is what is so compelling for me. It's very, very good news that God desires all of us to be with God. I'm relieved to know that heaven will, indeed, be heaven, because everyone we love will be there. I'm convinced that God's will shall be accomplished, despite our sin, despite our willfulness, despite our screwing up.

 

[Baerly]

**sigh**

The Pharisees got all myopic with the keeping of Biblical rules and regulations, too...Jesus called them "vipers" and "hypocrites." Grace is much more broad and much more inclusive than you give it credit for.

I guess Jesus never said, "When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." I suppose Paul never said, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god, and [all] are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." I guess God's will isn't, then, as stated in the first letter to Timothy: "This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." I guess God's will is really that most of humanity will be destroyed. But then, what do I know. I'm "not the friend of Jesus." Sucks to be me.

Go back to sleep and enjoy your fantasy.

sojourner writes :- The Pharisees got all myopic with the keeping of Biblical rules and regulations, too...Jesus called them "vipers" and "hypocrites." Grace is much more broad and much more inclusive than you give it credit for.

Baerly writes :- Many people make the mistake you made above. Your evaluation of what happened in (Mt 23) is not correct according to the word of God. They were not disciplined for obeying the rules and regulations which the O.T. law required them to do. They were not disciplined for teaching that people must obey the law. Notice what the Lord said to them in (Mt 23:23) THESE YE OUGHT TO HAVE DONE AND NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE. Jesus even said they had more they should have done.
They were disciplined for SAYING AND DOING NOT according to (Mt.23:3,4). They also loved to be seen of men and loved the best seats (vs 5,6,7). They also had their own traditions they were binding. But to say Jesus disciplined them for obeying the O.T. Law is incorrect, they were obligated to obey the law. People in the O.T. were blessed by the grace of God when they did all the Lord commanded them (Gen.6:22). It was then that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen.6:8).

sojourner writes:- I guess Jesus never said, "When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." I suppose Paul never said, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god, and [all] are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." I guess God's will isn't, then, as stated in the first letter to Timothy: "This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." I guess God's will is really that most of humanity will be destroyed. But then, what do I know. I'm "not the friend of Jesus." Sucks to be me.

Baely writes:- Were all drawn to God ONLY when we are called by the gospel and we respond to that gospel call (2Thess.2:14). The problem is that many have changed (or perverted) that gospel and when such a thing is done, that perverted gospel has no power to save according to (Gal.1:6-9). Yes, all men are justified by grace,but how is that done? Here is where most jump track. (Titus 2:11,12) tell us that grace TEACHES US to do certain things and NOT TO DO others. That would be the N.T. LAW. Grace is not some nebulous cloud which falls upon us,which we know not how. We can know when we are in the grace of God and we can know when we are out of the grace of God according to :
We can tell when our sins are WASHED AWAY (Acts 22:16).
We can tell when we are SAVED (1Peter 3:21).
We can tell when we are IN CHRIST (Gal.3:27) (Rom. 6:3,4).
We can also tell when one is in sin and out of the grace of God (Gal. 6:1,2) (1Cor.5) (2Thess.3;6,14,15) (Luke 17:3,4) (Mt. 18:15-17) (2Peter 2:21) (Acts 8:20-22).

My friend, just because God wants all to be saved does not mean all mankind will be saved (1Tim.2:4). The reason all mankind will not be saved is that, MEN are not interested in COMING TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH (1Tim.2;4) (Acts 13:46). In this verse God states HOW man must be saved, it is by (or thru) understanding the will of God (or truth) and then obeying that truth (1Tim.2:4). To many wish to change the plan of God. When that is done that perverted gospel does not have the power to save anyone (Gal.1:6-9).

Those who will be saved will accept the gospel as it is found in the bible (John 5:39) (Acts 17:11) (John 5:39) (Acts 2:41) (1Thess.2:13).

Those who will not be saved are those who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2Thess.1:7-9). Those are the words of Jesus,NOT MINE.

My friend, I am just stating what God has said about grace (1Peter 4:11).
in love Baerly

 

[sojourner]

My friend, just because God wants all to be saved does not mean all mankind will be saved

So, God's will shall not ultimately be accomplished. How small and ineffectual God is! I can now understand why there are so many who do not desire to worship God, when those who do worship God claim God to be small and ineffectual.

What a stark contrast to the Gospel message which is this: "Repent, for the kingdom of God has come near."

 

[Baerly]

So, God's will shall not ultimately be accomplished. How small and ineffectual God is! I can now understand why there are so many who do not desire to worship God, when those who do worship God claim God to be small and ineffectual.

What a stark contrast to the Gospel message which is this: "Repent, for the kingdom of God has come near."

That is a PART of the gospel.

After the ascension of Jesus The first gospel sermon was preached in (Acts 2). Those people who had killed Jesus were told what to do to take care of the sin they comitted. They were told to Repent and Be Baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Do you agree with this message of God?. It is the will of God.

 

[sojourner]

That is a PART of the gospel.

After the ascension of Jesus The first gospel sermon was preached in (Acts 2). Those people who had killed Jesus were told what to do to take care of the sin they comitted. They were told to Repent and Be Baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Do you agree with this message of God?. It is the will of God.

In other words, change your paradigm and be cleansed. OK. I don't have a problem with this. Neither do several other world religions.

 

[Baerly]

In other words, change your paradigm and be cleansed. OK. I don't have a problem with this. Neither do several other world religions.

I notice you think we changed something,but in reality we just read another part of the word of God. This part harmonizes and fits with all other parts of the bible.

So ,do you also agree with -- Believe + Be Baptized = Salvation -(Mark 16:16) ?

 

[Baerly]

Here is a good lesson on Baptism:

http://www.thebible.net/study/articles/Acts238-ProofThatThePeni.html


in love Baerly

 

[astarath]

My friend do not lay the blame on me. The bible says whosoever will. That means that whosoever won't will be lost (John 14:15,21). Jesus says (IF) ye continue in my word,THEN ye are my disciples (John 8:31).Christ let us know in this verse that we please him ONLY ON THE CONDITION THAT we follow his commandments,that is why he used the word (IF). It is not I that is condemning people to hell, I do not delight in those who would set aside the will of God to do their own will. My friend ,what do you think I am doing on this site? If you will consider the verses I have posted, They teach what I have stated. They do not say that because I interpreted them that way. They clearly teach most people will be lost (Mt 7:13,14) (Mt 25). Why will they be lost? Because they set aside the gospel and taught what the wanted to teach instead of truth (John 17:17) (Gal.1:6-9). The bible says not to teach any other gospel (1Tim.1:3). We are not to even listen to an angel from heaven if they teach any other doctrine. Even that angel is to be cut off from God if they are teaching something that does not harmonize with the bible. I did not say that,Jesus did (GAl.1:6-9) (1Cor.14:37). I am sounding the warning do not be deceived, we can know truth (Ezekiel 3:18) (2Thess.2:3,10) (Luke 1:4) (1John 2:21).

(Mt. 7:23) - Then I wll profess to them,I never knew you, DEPART from me,ye that work iniquity (or lawlessness). This one verse crushes the idea of Universalism.

Will you stand against the word of God till judgment day? Would you have Jesus say these words to you? All because you did not heed the warnings of Jesus and his word (John 12:48).

in love Baerly

Baptism is merely an act to portray a concious change in the soul.

I dont think it need be specifically that act of the baptism as it has become known to day but rather a climactic act to show the commencement of your walk in faith with the lord is what is neccessary.

Look at Ruth in the OT, she was not of Naomi's people but through her devotion to her mother and her subsequent adherence to the law she was pleasing to God and he rewarded her and her family with his glory.

It is the acts of love that prove the faith that cleanses the soul that is the cornerstone of the faith that God built.
The baptism is merely some water thrown on your head, rather it's taken the action to commit yourself to the baptism is what is important.
One can be cleansed of sin by pleasing God, completing works of love as proofs of faith as demonstrated above is pleasing to God and so cleansing to the soul

 

[sojourner]

I notice you think we changed something,but in reality we just read another part of the word of God. This part harmonizes and fits with all other parts of the bible.

So ,do you also agree with -- Believe + Be Baptized = Salvation -(Mark 16:16) ?

Doesn't "repent" indicate a change? It means "to turn." When we "turn," we change direction, perspective, impetus, goals, etc., do we not?

No. I don't think it's a formula, as you illustrate here. I think it's a process. We need to grow into our understanding of ourselves as having been found acceptable by grace. Some come to that reality quite quickly, some take a lifetime.

Salvation has already been secured. Do we believe that? Then we recognize that we have been made acceptable -- clean, if you will. Then we participate in a sacramental washing that marries a spiritual concept to our physical selves. Then we grow into the identity of being an acceptable individual.

 

[Baerly]

1. Baptism is merely an act to portray a concious change in the soul.

2.I dont think it need be specifically that act of the baptism as it has become known to day but rather a climactic act to show the commencement of your walk in faith with the lord is what is neccessary.

3.Look at Ruth in the OT, she was not of Naomi's people but through her devotion to her mother and her subsequent adherence to the law she was pleasing to God and he rewarded her and her family with his glory.

It is the acts of love that prove the faith that cleanses the soul that is the cornerstone of the faith that God built.
The baptism is merely some water thrown on your head, rather it's taken the action to commit yourself to the baptism is what is important.
One can be cleansed of sin by pleasing God, completing works of love as proofs of faith as demonstrated above is pleasing to God and so cleansing to the soul

1. Doesn't that walk with God INCLUDE Baptism in water as we find in (Acts 8:38,39) . Here it does not sound like just putting a little water upon the head,rather it is a complete immersion of the candidate who has already believed ,repented, and confessed (John 8:24) (Luke 13:3) (Acts 8:37).

2. (1Peter 3:21) - tells us that water baptism saves.Surely we want to speak as the oracles of God and not oppose Jesus (1Cor.14:37) (1Peter 4:11).

He That Believes + is Baptized = Salvation (Mark 16:16).

3. While I do appreciate you going to the bible, WE are not obligated to live under the O.T.Law.

We are to live under the New Testament Law (Heb.8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9). Again I commend you for going to the bible.Many just give their thoughts, opinions,etc.

in love Baerly

 

[Katzpur]

Baptism is merely an act to portray a concious change in the soul.

I know a lot of people who feel this way, astarath, but I am not one of them. Why do you believe that Jesus was baptized? Do you believe this act on His part was to portray a conscious change in the soul? He said it was "to fulfill all righteousness."

 

[Baerly]

Doesn't "repent" indicate a change? It means "to turn." When we "turn," we change direction, perspective, impetus, goals, etc., do we not?

No. I don't think it's a formula, as you illustrate here. I think it's a process. We need to grow into our understanding of ourselves as having been found acceptable by grace. Some come to that reality quite quickly, some take a lifetime.

Salvation has already been secured. Do we believe that? Then we recognize that we have been made acceptable -- clean, if you will. Then we participate in a sacramental washing that marries a spiritual concept to our physical selves. Then we grow into the identity of being an acceptable individual.

Please notice (Mark 16:16) says Believe + Be Baptized = Salvation. It was not I that said this, it was Jesus according to (1Cor.14:37) (John 14:26 ; 16:13). This is Gods formula as to when His grace is applied to those he will save. Please notice also that the word of God says that our salvation does not come till we Believe and have been Baptized according to (Mark 16:16).

The above info harmonizes with (Acts 22:16). That is, if one understands the verse properly. When one is baptized he is washed according to (Acts 22:16). That baptism must be in water and it must be an immersion according to (Acts 8:38,39).

The bible does not approve of sprinkling or pouring in the place of immersion. WE learn that changing the word of God comes with a heavy price tag when we study Nadab and Abihu in (Lev.10:1-4) (Rom.15:4).

in love Baerly

 

[sojourner]

Please notice (Mark 16:16) says Believe + Be Baptized = Salvation. It was not I that said this, it was Jesus according to (1Cor.14:37) (John 14:26 ; 16:13). This is Gods formula as to when His grace is applied to those he will save. Please notice also that the word of God says that our salvation does not come till we Believe and have been Baptized according to (Mark 16:16).

That particular interpretation doesn't ring true for me. Jesus speaks through his Church in both I Cor. and John...as well as through the doctrine of the Church. For centuries, the Church has stated that salvation has already been won for us.

That is, if one understands the verse properly.

What is the "proper" way to understand this verse? How do you know?

When one is baptized he is washed according to (Acts 22:16). That baptism must be in water and it must be an immersion according to (Acts 8:38,39).

The word for baptism does seem to indicate immersion. But it's a cultural thing. In that culture, people bathed in order to get clean. In our culture, most of us shower to get clean -- we sprinkle ourselves. I think it's the act of "getting clean" spiritually, and not the method that is important.

WE learn that changing the word of God comes with a heavy price tag when we study Nadab and Abihu in (Lev.10:1-4) (Rom.15:4).

WE learn that it's not God's word that changes, but our interpretation of God's word, as that word interacts with us culturally. We also learn that, failing to keep an open mind and a discerning heart is disastrous.