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Christian - Baptism

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
From your comments, I don't think we are even close on Grace. I take a radical departure from most people's views of Grace. In fact I have yet to find anyone who actually agrees with my beliefs. I'm OK with that to a certain extent, but it does make me second guess that understanding.

Too many rely on the intellect or study to understand God's will, when in fact it is the Spirit causing us to grow in grace that does this. I surely don't ascribe to a "hermeneutic cloud", but rather our inability to listen and simply follow the Spirit's will in our lives.

It's not a matter of how much we understand, but rather how much we apply that which we understand and actually put it into practice. You can only understand more of God's will by utilizing what you already know. While Grace is the free gift of God, that is not it's definition. Grace means becoming more like God. In fact the root of the Greek, charis, is what we get character and charisma from. This makes phrases such as "growing in the grace" meaningful. You "fall from grace" when you stop trying to grow in emulating God.

This is why I emphatically assert that baptism is an act of the cut heart, and not a "get out of jail free" card. This is why it is useless to baptize an infant as it is impossible for them to get any closer to God. They are already sinless in God's eyes.

Read all of Acts 2, where we are first introduced to the believer's baptism. Look at the transformation of the heart. First from mockery ("These men are drunk...") to one of knowing just how they crucified the Lord of Lords. Read the other conversions and look at the utter brokenness the full reliance on doing whatever the apostles asked of them. It's radical discipleship. It's simply off the hook, especially when compared to today's congregations. For the most part Christians in America ascribe to the Gospel of convenience and not of sacrifice.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You're right when you say that "baptism isn't a 'get out of jail free' card." The point of baptism (in my belief) is not to win us a "backstage pass" to heaven. The point of why we participate in baptism is because we feel that it is a sacrament -- an outward sign of grace at work in us. When we baptize our children, we're acknowledging that grace is at work in these innocent ones -- for all human souls are in need of grace. That doesn't mean that I think baptism "saves us." Baptism acknowledges that we are saved. It is the Spirit that is efficacious -- not the water, nor the act.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Again, we have completely different concepts of grace.

As far as I can tell, Grace is not passive. No, you can't earn it, but you have to USE it for it to increase. You certainly didn't "earn" your muscles, but unless you use them they are useless.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
NIV

But hey, we probably have different concepts of faith as well.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course we work our "grace muscles." That's part of what it means to follow, to be faithful, to obey. Baptism (IMO) is how we begin doing that.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
sojourner said:
Baptism (IMO) is how we begin doing that.
As long as it's OUR choice and not the choice of someone else.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. NIV

Again, it's about a personal choice to believe in God and to believe in his name. A husband/father/wife/mother has no say in your being born again.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NetDoc said:
As long as it's OUR choice and not the choice of someone else.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. NIV

Again, it's about a personal choice to believe in God and to believe in his name. A husband/father/wife/mother has no say in your being born again.

No one has a say in our being born again -- except God. Baptism doesn't make one "born again." Once again, it's neither the water, nor the act that are efficacious. It's the Spirit that is efficacious.

Who knows where the Spirit chooses to work? We trust (because we're Christians) that the Spirit chooses to work in the lives of the faithful. baptism is our acknowledgment of that work. Faithful parents are certainly capable (and expected) to recognize the Spirit working in the lives of their families, and are charged to acknowledge that work through the act of baptism. Just as parents are expected to nourish their children physically by feeding them (even though the child does not understand nutrition), parents are expected to nourish their children spiritually, as well.
 
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