Christ Is King, But Business Is Business?

[Sunstone]

Until recently, an acquaintance of mine worked as an electrician for a deck company. That is, the company makes custom built decks for people's homes, and it is positioned in the high end of the market. A typical deck built by this company costs around $100,000, and decks costing over $300,000 are not unheard of. This company is hugely profitable.

It is also owned by a couple who believe themselves to be good Christians. Their business has been good to them. They have just built a private 2 hole golf course and club house on their estate south of town using some of the profits from their company. They are members of one of the larger evangelical churches here in town, a church that subscribes to the Gospel of Prosperity. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Shortly before Thanksgiving, they fired the electrician. Did they fire him because he was insubordinate? Nope. Did they fire him because he didn't know his job? Nope. Did they fire him because he was defrauding the company? Nope.

They fired him because he was too slow.

These owners mark up their decks enough to rake in a fortune in profits each year. By replacing the man with someone a bit faster, they will have saved on labor costs and thus "earned" a bit more profit. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Do you think the couple acted morally?

Does Jesus really want us to be as rich as possible?

Is the business imperative to make a profit compatible with the injunction of Jesus to love our neighbor as ourselves?

If you were the pastor of this couple's church, would you counsel the couple to treat their employees better, or would you consider that beyond the scope of your role as their pastor?

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

 

[Bishka]

Do you think the couple acted morally?

Positivley no.

Does Jesus really want us to be as rich as possible?

Depends on what you mean by rich? Moneywise? Not necessarily.

If you were the pastor of this couple's church, would you counsel the couple to treat their employees better, or would you consider that beyond the scope of your role as their pastor?

I'd say something

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

If it's done in the right way, and by prosperity not only equaling financial success.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Until recently, an acquaintance of mine worked as an electrician for a deck company. That is, the company makes custom built decks for people's homes, and it is positioned in the high end of the market. A typical deck built by this company costs around $100,000, and decks costing over $300,000 are not unheard of. This company is hugely profitable.

It is also owned by a couple who believe themselves to be good Christians. Their business has been good to them. They have just built a private 2 hole golf course and club house on their estate south of town using some of the profits from their company. They are members of one of the larger evangelical churches here in town, a church that subscribes to the Gospel of Prosperity. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Shortly before Thanksgiving, they fired the electrician. Did they fire him because he was insubordinate? Nope. Did they fire him because he didn't know his job? Nope. Did they fire him because he was defrauding the company? Nope.

They fired him because he was too slow.

How slow are we talking here? If he repeatedly did not get the job done in the standard time it should take him, then yes, I can see how that would reasonably lead to termination.

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

Obtaining masses of personal wealth is not what Christianity is about. There is nothing wrong with being financially successful or runnning a business efficiently from the Christian perspective, but money should not be the primary focus of a Christian's mind. If it is, it tends to take one's focus off of God and onto one's own selfish desires.

 

[cardero]

I'd be very interested in the responses this topic receives.

 

[Majikthise]

We let a new guy go just before Thanksgiving. Reality sucks.
It's hard to terminate somebody these days, everybody wants to sue you. He had to have been a little more than slow to get the boot.
But , it does seem that these good christians aren't walkin' the walk.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

If he was so slow to the point they felt they had to fire him, they might well have a point, business-wise and perhaps morally. It is difficult to judge in many situations, but even more so with this little information to go by.

Out of curiosity, do these people do other things that would be consistent? Charity, and such? That would be the bigger thing I would be concerned with, sympathy for your friend aside. I am quite sure, although I have not read the NT in its entirety yet, that Jesus was concerned with acts of charity and compassion and so forth. I am also certain that his followers becoming rich was not one of his main concerns.

Being something of an outside observer, I could not say for certain if "the Gospel of Prosperity [is] truly Christian in spirit." Making money is, I believe, compatable. How you make that money and what you then do with it seems more the issue.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There would seem to be two issues here.
1) employment law
2) morality

1)In the UK a worker could be sacked for working too slowly, provided He was offered, re training, he was not disabled and had been provided with the necessary aids or facilities, his age, he has been warned about his behavior.
This would be the same what ever the profitability of the company he worked for.

2)The moral issues are split between a companies stated ethical standards; and the private moral standards of the owners.
If they trade as an ethical company who have declared standards of employment and customer and environmental care; then I would expect them to live up to those standards in all their dealings.

Their treatment of employees by the owners of the company, should not only reflect the above standards, but should at the very least reflect their own avowed personal beliefs. As Christians this should include the moral standards set by their church.

In the case of the electrician I would expect the treatment to be no less than the UK legal standard (which is the minimum required here).
I would also expect them to take into account... length of service, quality of work( if it was of the highest quality but relatively slow, he could be put on special jobs where quality was the criterion).

This is not a simple issue of Business V moral standards.
They have every right to employ who the want.
Employees... should have no greater expectations than the law or their own contract provides for them.
Employers...Must conform to the law and the contract. But If they require more than the minimum of loyalty and effort from their employees, they would be well advise to consider the welfare and trust of all those working for them.

 

[Halcyon]

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

Not even vaguely.

In fact the "Gospel of Prosperity" is the antithesis of Christ's message.

Matthew 19:21-24
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Christ recognised that Earthly wealth means nothing, only spiritual wealth truly matters. Of course, this is not suggesting that people should live in poverty, otherwise he wouldn't advise giving to the poor.

 

[michel]

Until recently, an acquaintance of mine worked as an electrician for a deck company. That is, the company makes custom built decks for people's homes, and it is positioned in the high end of the market. A typical deck built by this company costs around $100,000, and decks costing over $300,000 are not unheard of. This company is hugely profitable.

It is also owned by a couple who believe themselves to be good Christians. Their business has been good to them. They have just built a private 2 hole golf course and club house on their estate south of town using some of the profits from their company. They are members of one of the larger evangelical churches here in town, a church that subscribes to the Gospel of Prosperity. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Shortly before Thanksgiving, they fired the electrician. Did they fire him because he was insubordinate? Nope. Did they fire him because he didn't know his job? Nope. Did they fire him because he was defrauding the company? Nope.

They fired him because he was too slow.

These owners mark up their decks enough to rake in a fortune in profits each year. By replacing the man with someone a bit faster, they will have saved on labor costs and thus "earned" a bit more profit. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Do you think the couple acted morally?

Does Jesus really want us to be as rich as possible?

Is the business imperative to make a profit compatible with the injunction of Jesus to love our neighbor as ourselves?

If you were the pastor of this couple's church, would you counsel the couple to treat their employees better, or would you consider that beyond the scope of your role as their pastor?

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

When I got to the bit in red, I rapidly 'went off them'........

Money is a hard one (when thought of in tandem with religion). I as a father and husband, have a duty to my wife and children......forget that though:- any savings over that which can provide me (on a rainy day) with a new computer to follow my only hobby - talking to you guys, is superfluous........

But, I have my dependents......and I will never know 'how much is enough' for them.............

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Do you think the couple acted morally?

I don't think choosing to hire someone better is a moral issue. I suppose you could look at it as being moral, as they gave a better, faster electrician a job that he otherwise would not have, allowing him to take part in a successful business. But, then, someone else lost his job. So, its kind of neutral with regard to morality.

Does Jesus really want us to be as rich as possible?

Yes. It is what we do with our wealth, I believe, that would matter to Jesus.

Is the business imperative to make a profit compatible with the injunction of Jesus to love our neighbor as ourselves?

Absolutely. Most profit systems are based on the idea of mutual benefit. In this case, it was not mutually beneficial for the company to hold onto the slower electrician. It would be unfair for them to have to keep him.

If you were the pastor of this couple's church, would you counsel the couple to treat their employees better, or would you consider that beyond the scope of your role as their pastor?

I suppose, I would be supporting their attempts at getting more money, expecially if that increased the amount they gave to the church.

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how you understand the message of Christ. If you understand it as, "worldly things are evil, stay away from them", then I would say pressuring people to sacrfice their own good for others is Christian in spirit. If you understand the message as simply a message of love, then these business decisions are morally neutral. One person gets a job and another loses a job. Why is one of these people more important than the other? The only way for it to be a moral issue, is if you think people should be forced to sacrifice themselves on principle (which I think a small majority of Christians would support).

 

[Pah]

I'm concerned more about the acceptance of wealth in spite of the injunctions Christ made against being rich. The scrpiture against an accumulation of wealth is forthright and in plain text. The scriptual defense of wealth is from verse that requires interpretation to establish the religious right of worldly wealth. (I wish I had bookmarked that page of scripual references or if I did, put in a place that readily springs to mind)

 

[Paladin]

Phil,

Is your friend a slow worker? Most sparkies I have worked alongside over the years were pretty good, and an extra slow one is rare. I was once threatened with being fired by Murrays heating and air because I wasn't bringing in enough money and was fixing things for nothing. The reality was, as a service tech, I was trying to fix mistakes made by the installation crew and turn irate customers back into happy ones. The then owner, and Iranian named Bob, who seemed to invoke God at every turn, told me that NOTHING is more important than money.
Having an abundance in your life is part of the abundance of nature herself, and If you believe that what Christ taught is true "As a man thinketh, so is he" You can do well in your business life. It is the attatchment to wealth that Christ spoke ill of. Notice that in all the scriptures this seems to be the case.

Peace
Mark

 

[Ozzie]

When I got to the bit in red, I rapidly 'went off them'........

Money is a hard one (when thought of in tandem with religion). I as a father and husband, have a duty to my wife and children......forget that though:- any savings over that which can provide me (on a rainy day) with a new computer to follow my only hobby - talking to you guys, is superfluous........

But, I have my dependents......and I will never know 'how much is enough' for them.............

The same ought to provide incentive for a "slow" employee to speed up.

 

[Ozzie]

Until recently, an acquaintance of mine worked as an electrician for a deck company. That is, the company makes custom built decks for people's homes, and it is positioned in the high end of the market. A typical deck built by this company costs around $100,000, and decks costing over $300,000 are not unheard of. This company is hugely profitable.

It is also owned by a couple who believe themselves to be good Christians. Their business has been good to them. They have just built a private 2 hole golf course and club house on their estate south of town using some of the profits from their company. They are members of one of the larger evangelical churches here in town, a church that subscribes to the Gospel of Prosperity. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Shortly before Thanksgiving, they fired the electrician. Did they fire him because he was insubordinate? Nope. Did they fire him because he didn't know his job? Nope. Did they fire him because he was defrauding the company? Nope.

They fired him because he was too slow.

These owners mark up their decks enough to rake in a fortune in profits each year. By replacing the man with someone a bit faster, they will have saved on labor costs and thus "earned" a bit more profit. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Do you think the couple acted morally?

Does Jesus really want us to be as rich as possible?

Is the business imperative to make a profit compatible with the injunction of Jesus to love our neighbor as ourselves?

If you were the pastor of this couple's church, would you counsel the couple to treat their employees better, or would you consider that beyond the scope of your role as their pastor?

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

I know of some successful small businesses in which the owners may or may not be good employers in Christian terms. There fact or not of their Christian values seems irrelevant to business success. Maybe this indicates that labour law is skewed in favour of the employer and morality does not come into it?

Oz

 

[roli]

Until recently, an acquaintance of mine worked as an electrician for a deck company. That is, the company makes custom built decks for people's homes, and it is positioned in the high end of the market. A typical deck built by this company costs around $100,000, and decks costing over $300,000 are not unheard of. This company is hugely profitable.

It is also owned by a couple who believe themselves to be good Christians. Their business has been good to them. They have just built a private 2 hole golf course and club house on their estate south of town using some of the profits from their company. They are members of one of the larger evangelical churches here in town, a church that subscribes to the Gospel of Prosperity. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Shortly before Thanksgiving, they fired the electrician. Did they fire him because he was insubordinate? Nope. Did they fire him because he didn't know his job? Nope. Did they fire him because he was defrauding the company? Nope.

They fired him because he was too slow.

These owners mark up their decks enough to rake in a fortune in profits each year. By replacing the man with someone a bit faster, they will have saved on labor costs and thus "earned" a bit more profit. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Do you think the couple acted morally?

Does Jesus really want us to be as rich as possible?

Is the business imperative to make a profit compatible with the injunction of Jesus to love our neighbor as ourselves?

If you were the pastor of this couple's church, would you counsel the couple to treat their employees better, or would you consider that beyond the scope of your role as their pastor?

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

It's interesting when people acquire some limited facts of a situation, looking from the outside in and not directly involved, as what this scenario portrays, that they feel confident enough to assess and endeavor to label the individuals responsible,that being obviously the owners of this successful christian business.Seems like no better target to the secular community than christians,especially in today's society.
I'm sure their status as christians,successful christians at that, has no bearing on the motive of this thread.
1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Your attempt to make a judgement call based on personal perspective,sharing your thoughts and questioning the actions of the parties concerned is weak without knowing the facts and of course there would certainly be no prejusdice on your part that could influence this thread
Do we know anything about this electrician.
Was the electrician warned before his actual dismisal,did he have a history of such conduct,did they give him ample opportunity to improve.
Was he a liablility to the productivity of the company.
What was the true heart felt feelings, attitudes and actions of the owners,did they pray about it,did they talk to their pastor,did they actually do all that they thought possible to rectify this situation before dismisal.

We just don't know the heart of the owners, nor their track record of dealing with employee's.Nor their conduct in day to day life.
Every accusation against these owners is merely speculation and assumption
So how can a judgement call be made on these people when there is still too much we are ignorant about.
Maybe the report from the electrician about these people was bias,prejudice and inflamatory because of the personal offence felt by the electrician.
How can anyone make an accurate assessment and or comment on this scenario,it's totally impossible

All I potentially see here is an attempt to degrade and expose some christians placing them on the chopping block,for 1) being christians 2) being prosperous 3) firing an employee and whatever other illegitimate claims directed towards them.

Maybe I'll start a thread on the electrician, now that I have the same information on him as sunstone has on the owners of this company,that being second hand knowledge and insufficient facts of this scenario from an aquaintance ,that to me would be"Sunstone"

This thread would place in question his religious or non religious practices,his unethical behavior and possible insubordinate actions towards the owners of this company and maybe his personal financial status and marital relationship.
How he speculatively was a selfish,self righteous and uncaring man in his dealing with the community and maybe even expose the demoninational church that he was a memeber of.

If we really use our imagination as many in this thread will certainly do,we could create these owners to be the most dishonest,hypocritical,deceiving,self rightoeus,greedy people who were in the wrong without knowing enough about everybody concerned

 

[Cynic]

Until recently, an acquaintance of mine worked as an electrician for a deck company. That is, the company makes custom built decks for people's homes, and it is positioned in the high end of the market. A typical deck built by this company costs around $100,000, and decks costing over $300,000 are not unheard of. This company is hugely profitable.

It is also owned by a couple who believe themselves to be good Christians. Their business has been good to them. They have just built a private 2 hole golf course and club house on their estate south of town using some of the profits from their company. They are members of one of the larger evangelical churches here in town, a church that subscribes to the Gospel of Prosperity. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Shortly before Thanksgiving, they fired the electrician. Did they fire him because he was insubordinate? Nope. Did they fire him because he didn't know his job? Nope. Did they fire him because he was defrauding the company? Nope.

They fired him because he was too slow.

These owners mark up their decks enough to rake in a fortune in profits each year. By replacing the man with someone a bit faster, they will have saved on labor costs and thus "earned" a bit more profit. Jesus wants you to be rich.

Do you think the couple acted morally?

Does Jesus really want us to be as rich as possible?

Is the business imperative to make a profit compatible with the injunction of Jesus to love our neighbor as ourselves?

If you were the pastor of this couple's church, would you counsel the couple to treat their employees better, or would you consider that beyond the scope of your role as their pastor?

Is the Gospel of Prosperity truly Christian in spirit?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:23
[/FONT]

 

[love]

I dont know if Christ had any material possessions other than the clothes on his back

 

[FFH]

Great opening post Sunstone !!!

Does God want us to prosper ????

Yes, but only if we use the excess wealth to build up HIS kingdom, not ours.

We must use the excess wealth given to us to do His will not ours. For instance missionary work (spreading His gospel of peace).

There are three "missions" of the LDS church

1) Perfect the Saints (Attend church, home teaching, etc.)
2) Spread the Gospel (Misionary work)
3) Redeem the Dead (Vicarious work for the dead performed in LDS tamples)

These all take lots of money.

For instance church buildings, temples, and their maintenance, not to mentione all the full time missionaries.

Only those things done for God will last throughout the eternities.

Matthew 6: 19-20

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal,

but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal

 

[Arabis]

Jesus wants us to be rich?! I must have missed that memo somewhere. I think that Jesus wants us to be prosperous, but also giving. I know plenty of people who have money and I think that it depends on what you do with it that counts. Humility does not come from riches, usually. I have been the most humble and relied upon the the Lord when I have had the least. Maybe if we had less we would all be a little better off.

 

[Sunstone]

Y'all are making good points! Frankly, I don't know how slow or fast the electrician was compared to other electricians. What interested me about his case was that the company he worked for was hugely profitable. Profitable enough that I imagined it could afford to hire and keep an employee who was a bit slower than average, so long as the man did quality work. And I was wondering if (assuming the above is true) it would be the moral thing to keep the slow employee?