I'd rather be oppressed by a company whose business I can reject,
than a government whose oppression is omnipresent.
No one is forced to buy John Deere. They have Case, Kubota, New
Holland, etc.
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China Expected to be the Only Major Economy with Positive Growth this Year
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
than a government whose oppression is omnipresent.
No one is forced to buy John Deere. They have Case, Kubota, New
Holland, etc.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Amazon, in a super twist of irony, once removed copies of a double package of Animal Farm and 1984 from user's Kindles, users who paid for that digital collection. DRM doesn't just protect corporate profits, it imposes unreasonable restrictions on consumers.
I'm sure that many examples of Ameristan's & its business's failings
can be found. But if offering them as examples of how Ameristan &
China have equivalent oppression, this doesn't do the job. Not to
say that you're doing it, but it would be whataboutism.
ecco
Veteran Member
Weren't you the guy that was lecturing me about context just a few days ago in another thread?
It's too bad you didn't understand the context of my comment.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
America and China won't.
Sony, however, they too have went after people who violated user agreements on devices the consumer purchased.
So it's more China and Clear Channel with the censorship.
Brent Mcnealy
Member
China's economy is the one at this point in time that has potential to become explosive. With a diminishing US reserve currency in the global scheme and the potential in population and industry in China they can literally imo take off with the likes not seen in many many years.
Meanwhile in the US with global world economic forum leaders talking reset. It seems to me that part of the newest global economic banking and trading plan is at its base all nations keeping interest rates at zero and not existant. They are (imo again,) most likely while holding all national rates at zero, trying to baby the US out of reserve currency and into a global intertwimed security trading scheme.
I do not think these who desire a global economic reset want any nations participating (and there are many considering it) ending up in a state of collapse. Including the US and China
Back in the US I am wondering if we are just beginning to see the devaluation of our reserve currency as evident in the dxy.
Where a safe haven for those who have US dollars $$$ remains to be seen since things have yet not gotten dicey. These could include precious metals. digital currencies. real estate. other more stable currencies. Etc. I dont want to get into that conversation as its mostly debated by the single asset people who are religiously adament amd pushing there asset like a drug.
Basically I see the US dealing with trying to hold i terest rates at near zero as per global needs and trying to manipulate the US ecoomy by all other means.while doing so (QE etc.) While dealing with a quickly devaluing currency. All other nations seem to have it easy compared to the US in this great teset attempt.
We should have a greatly devaluation of our currency coming. And I dont mean a gradual small decrease either. I think the next few years this will be biggest factor of the Biden era. Just IMO and keep am eye on the dxy. That will tell.
That said what other actions the US has on its efforts to remain viably solvent while its currency devalues and i terest rates are held at zero remains to be seen.
China however has a potentintial (imo) to become a power house near instantly. I believe the potential is there and not many nation can say that. If China is participating in this global economic reset (as would be evident by its holding near zero rates lime the others) Then I wonder if it actually does explode near overnight into a economic powerhouse. With near full employment and assets up the ying yang. Will they have the desire or the will to remain a part of the global reset plan. Or will they go rogue in an effort to rule over the world
I hate it when I agree with you, even partially.
Do Sony or Deere put offenders in re-education camps?
Your pain is my pleasure.
From what I have seen, the views of most people in the US about conditions in China are 20-50 years out of date.
China was, perhaps, most Orwellian under Mao. From the Great Leap Forward, to the Cultural Revolution, the ideology from the top really did oppress and dehumanize people at all levels.
That said, the economy after Deng has opened up considerably. It is now acceptable to have a profit making business that is privately owned. The supermarkets are well stocked and people usually have the money to shop in them. The cities are vibrant and people have freedom of movement for vacations, etc. In ways that never existed before, the needs of the average person are being met in today's Chinese society.
The problem, of course, is the political system. It is horribly oppressive to anyone who questions the power of the Communist Party. But, frankly, the vast majority of people feel like they can ignore most political questions as being of only limited relevance for their day to day life. Like people in the US, they are concerned about jobs and making ends meet and taking care of family, etc. And, there *are* jobs. They can freely move between jobs (although not between locations, which is a very different matter). They don't have the 'sport' of complaining about their leaders. But, in the US, these complaints are usually just sport and have little actual consequence.
And, of course, this is mostly true of those in the cities and in the favored areas in the East. The current treatment of the Uighurs shows what can happen outside of those favored areas. There is also a LOT of unofficial racism against anyone not ethnically Han. This shows itself in a variety of ways like promotions and finding jobs or apartments. Of course, the US has a similar issue for its own ethnic minorities.
When I was there, the main concerns of younger people seemed to be whether they would be able to get an apartment. it seems that all of the good ones are now in the hands of the older generation, so the younger people have to wait for a relative to die before they can afford to get their own place to stay. They are also interested in whether they will be allowed to have two children.
I think there will be problems ahead, though. Those who are making money in business will eventually want more political power. That will produce a showdown between the government and businesses. And, while the government seems to have a lot of goodwill because it has allowed things to open up economically, that goodwill may easily transfer to the business leaders that actually produce the goods. How the government will react to that challenge is the big question in my mind for the next couple of decades.
In terms of the OP, it is clear that China dealt with this pandemic with a lot of force, closing down in ways that would not be tolerated in the US or Europe. But they also succeeded. Even if their numbers are cooked, they ended up doing better, by far, than the US response. And they could do so because of their authoritarian system and the fact that people were willing to follow the directions of the government.
China was, perhaps, most Orwellian under Mao. From the Great Leap Forward, to the Cultural Revolution, the ideology from the top really did oppress and dehumanize people at all levels.
That said, the economy after Deng has opened up considerably. It is now acceptable to have a profit making business that is privately owned. The supermarkets are well stocked and people usually have the money to shop in them. The cities are vibrant and people have freedom of movement for vacations, etc. In ways that never existed before, the needs of the average person are being met in today's Chinese society.
The problem, of course, is the political system. It is horribly oppressive to anyone who questions the power of the Communist Party. But, frankly, the vast majority of people feel like they can ignore most political questions as being of only limited relevance for their day to day life. Like people in the US, they are concerned about jobs and making ends meet and taking care of family, etc. And, there *are* jobs. They can freely move between jobs (although not between locations, which is a very different matter). They don't have the 'sport' of complaining about their leaders. But, in the US, these complaints are usually just sport and have little actual consequence.
And, of course, this is mostly true of those in the cities and in the favored areas in the East. The current treatment of the Uighurs shows what can happen outside of those favored areas. There is also a LOT of unofficial racism against anyone not ethnically Han. This shows itself in a variety of ways like promotions and finding jobs or apartments. Of course, the US has a similar issue for its own ethnic minorities.
When I was there, the main concerns of younger people seemed to be whether they would be able to get an apartment. it seems that all of the good ones are now in the hands of the older generation, so the younger people have to wait for a relative to die before they can afford to get their own place to stay. They are also interested in whether they will be allowed to have two children.
I think there will be problems ahead, though. Those who are making money in business will eventually want more political power. That will produce a showdown between the government and businesses. And, while the government seems to have a lot of goodwill because it has allowed things to open up economically, that goodwill may easily transfer to the business leaders that actually produce the goods. How the government will react to that challenge is the big question in my mind for the next couple of decades.
In terms of the OP, it is clear that China dealt with this pandemic with a lot of force, closing down in ways that would not be tolerated in the US or Europe. But they also succeeded. Even if their numbers are cooked, they ended up doing better, by far, than the US response. And they could do so because of their authoritarian system and the fact that people were willing to follow the directions of the government.
I almost totally agree with your statement outside of the word "willing" which should be "forced".
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
No doubt.What a big surprise.
China is a closed Communist country with a history of sealed lips and outright lying on their true state by affairs and hiding facts.
And that is partly a question I don't know the answer to. Yes, I am sure they felt 'inconvenienced'. i am sure they would have preferred not to have been locked into their apartments for two months.
But did they see it as 'being forced' as much as 'here is what you need to do because of this disease'?
Remember, the culture is more inclined to trust the government than we are in the West. If the government said 'this is necessary', do they see it as 'being forced'? The idea of sacrifice for the general good is very ingrained in the society and has been for a very long time.
I am sure some did. But I am also sure the vast majority did not.
And that is certainly true. Although, a lot does come out eventually. The Great Leap Forward was a failure on its own terms and was recognized as such and admitted as such. The Cultural Revolution was also acknowledged as an example of horrid excess (partly because Deng Xiaoping was one of its victims).
Even in Communist China, there are differences of opinion among the elite. The politics tends to be very personal and can be violent, but those differences do exist and power politics is played ruthlessly. One of the aspects is the very transactional way that the elite work. One of the things I worry about in the US is how that has become more commonly done.
Given how the crackdown in Hong Kong played out and the coverup was orchestrated around the death of the doctor who told people what was going on, it's probably force, threat of force, lying and some of what you wrote.
But in the background of my mind, I still remember Tienanmen and the crackdown before today's even harsher authoritarian rule which makes it difficult to know how many are in each category.
Well...he looks shifty af.
If we resorted to sweatshops, authoritarian laws, denial of rights (like to be free from discrimination and retaliation), and so on, I bet we would have positive growth too. Unfortunately, pesky things like checks and balances and civil rights get in the way.
Are you referring to the waste water study?
I agree. I know someone who was at Tienanmen square the day before the crackdown. She had friends die there.
And that's another aspect of any authoritarian regime: the vast majority of people just go about their lives and don't really pay attention to the politics unless it affects them directly. Since most people don't feel inclined to speak out for cultural reasons, they can ignore all but the extreme cases (like the Cultural Revolution). And, in the case of the virus, most probably went along simply because it was easier.