Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

[Sakeenah]

Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

1: Muslims believe the Koran is the word of God, so it's the "Ultimate Truth"
2: Muslims believe that when reading the Koran that God is talking to them
3: Koran 5:51 suggests Muslims are taught that Jews and Christians are NOT their friends
4: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is generalizing "All Christians and Jews are the same"
5: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is not allowing free will to a Muslim [And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them]

I as a Lover of Christ have I a friend who is a Muslim.
So the Koran is wrong to generalize and suggest that "Alle Christians and Jews are the same"
a): Hereby I have proven that the Koran should not be taken literally.
b): This proofs also the Koran is "False". If the word of God is considered the "Truth".

Knowing this:
Should one still regard the Koran as the book of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as the word of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as "God talking to us"?

[Idea: If the Koran claims to be the "Ultimate Truth" should then not all verses be "True"]

IMHO

Any comments?

Note: @Lvcifer Invictvs: pointed out correctly "should be in Quranic Debates". But as this post is about 1 verse I highlighted about how Koran sees "Christians/Jews" I think it is correct here afterall. But probable the title is not so clear. Can't change that anymore. Hope this note clears the confusion.

Hi stvd,

Majority of RF Muslims haven't been active lately, so I don't think you'll get a lot of responses. I'm not taking part in this thread to accept a challenge. I just hope that I can clear up some misconceptions.

It would have been nice if you started with asking us Muslims how we interpret this verse. The issue with reading verses and interpreting it with very little knowledge of context is that you interpret verses like the one above incorrectly.

The arabic word used in this verse is
أَوْلِيَآءَ this word has a specific meaning which is protector,supporter. We aren't allowed to take protectors/supporters among those who fight/opress other Muslims. This verse is not a prohibition of kindness and friendship. Allah says in another verse:
"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."

And in a different verse it is clear that Muslims can feel love towards a non Muslim. This verse was regarding the uncle of the prophet Muhammad.

Lo! thou (O Muhammad) guidest not whom thou lovest, but Allah guideth whom He will.( 28:56)

This video explains it a bit more:

 

[stvdv]

Regarding point 3 it should be noted that Islam is a decidedly proselytizing religion and you cannot spread the message to people you refuse to talk to, so the idea that they cannot be friends cannot be literal

Thanks YmirGF. You help me getting creative here.
3: Koran 5:51 suggests Muslims are taught that Jews and Christians are NOT their friends

you cannot spread the message to people you refuse to talk to
1: Of course you know that is not true. If there is a law that prohibits other religions in many ways to express as they like, can be seen as a way to proselytize Islam indirectly IMHO.

2: Another option is that I have seen on TV that certain members were quite creative to make non-Muslims to accept Islam. No words were needed.
[And history learns that Christians have done the same; we need to work hard to stop this]

3: Takiyya is another way to overcome this obstacle.

4: The verse does not prohibit you to talk to non-muslims

 

[Sakeenah]

The Orthodox Islamic perspective is to take some things literally, and other things figuratively.

Verses would also be interpreted within a broader context, for example, some would argue that the verse you quoted related to a specific time of conflict during Muhammad's lifetime, and is not a general injunction (others would disagree).

The text also contains numerous rhetorical features, for example 'Verily, they are the worst of creatures...' would be hyperbole, and thus not to be interpreted literally.

The sun setting into a swamp would be another passage that is generally not interpreted in a literal sense.

The degree to which things should be taken literally is obviously an area with a diversity of opinions though.

@stvdv this post answers your question.

 

[stvdv]

Hi stvd,
I'm not taking part in this thread to accept a challenge. I just hope that I can clear up some misconceptions. It would have been nice if you started with asking us Muslims how we interpret this verse. The issue with reading verses and interpreting it with very little knowledge of context is that you interpret verses like the one above incorrectly.

The arabic word used in this verse is
أَوْلِيَآءَ this word has a specific meaning which is protector,supporter. We aren't allowed to take protectors/supporters among those who fight/opress other Muslims. This verse is not a prohibition of kindness and friendship. Allah says in another verse:
"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."
And in a different verse it is clear that Muslims can feel love towards a non Muslim. This verse was regarding the uncle of the prophet Muhammad.
Lo! thou (O Muhammad) guidest not whom thou lovest, but Allah guideth whom He will.( 28:56)

Hi Sakeenah,

Thanks for your feedback. Mis-interpretation indeed is many times the problem. I just meant "It's a challenging idea for some to consider that some verses can't be taken literal". But see now that it can give the feeling "just a game". My mistake. I'm not like that, I do have 1 desire "That the fight between Muslims and non-Muslims stops; and also other fights". To get there putting these hot-verses on the table is needed IMHO.

So thank you, that although my post was insensitive [not ask Muslim how they interpret] you took the time to take the hot edge off.
I agree that I was insensitive, but you should agree that the verse is written insensitive also, quite judgemental. I just read the english correct.

This is a quite demeaning part:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them"
Here is clearly stated "for friendship", so your explanation "about protectors" won't solve this

So the only answer would still be "Yes, I agree, this part is wrong". Then your given examples make sense. The verse is wrong or the translation is wrong; it has nothing to do with my lack of knowledge, nor with the context.

Trying to disguise this mistake is the seed for ISIS-like interpretations. Which both of us don't want. And I am truthful, the Bible also verses leading to violence. As a Lover of Christ I would Love them to take those verses out, or put them in red for being "False". 2000 years of religious wars using exactly this kind of verses is proof enough for me that these verses are "wrong" IMHO

Thanks for the video also. I am curious to see now.

 

[stvdv]

@stvdv this post answers your question.

It answers my question: to take koran verses literally or not?
But the other related questions in the post are not answered yet
And they are far more interesting:
1: If verses can't be taken literal then it's "Personal Truth"; not "Universal Truth", not "Gods Truth"
Still very valuable though, but this creates an opening to other religions/humans

If a religions believes they own the "Only Truth", and others are "Inferior Truth"
Then of course there will never be peace, and of course
Koran 5:51 will be interpreted in a violent way

Because "My Religions Owns The Truth" is in itself already "Violence"
Love is the only way to solve violence; Violence never will

 

[atanu]

Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust....
So the Koran is wrong to generalize and suggest that "Alle Christians and Jews are the same"
...

But the suggested generalization "All Christians/Jews are bad" is "wrong".
Arguments cannot change that. Those are still "False" arguments.

IMO, if verses from 5.47 to 5.57 are studied together, the meaning does not come up as "All Christians/Jews are bad". This is also true of many other examples when isolated verses are used.

 

[atanu]

IMO, the following two verses (and also the proximal ones from 5.47 to 5.57) provide the context to the verse 5.51 and make it acceptable that only God and His word must be taken as the ultimate guide.

5.48. We have sent down to you (O Messenger) the Book with the truth (embodying it, and with nothing false in it), confirming (the Divine authorship of, and the truths that are still contained by) whatever of the Book was revealed before it, and guarding over (all the true teachings in) it. Judge, then, between them by what God has sent down (to you), and do not follow their desires and caprices away from the truth that has come to you. For each (community to which a Messenger was sent with a Book), have We appointed a clear way of life and a comprehensive system (containing the principles of that way and how to follow it). And if God had so willed, He would surely have made you a single community (following the same way of life and system surrounded by the same conditions throughout all history); but (He willed it otherwise) in order to test you by what He granted to you (and thereby made you subject to a law of progress). Strive, then, together as if competing in good works. To God is the return of all of you, and He will then make you understand (the truth) about what you have differed on.

5.57. O you who believe! Do not take for guardians and confidants such of those who were given the Book before as make a mockery and sport of your Religion, and the unbelievers (who reject the Messenger, Divine Revelation, and the Last Day). Keep from disobedience to God in reverence for Him and piety, if you are truly believers.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

1: Muslims believe the Koran is the word of God, so it's the "Ultimate Truth"
2: Muslims believe that when reading the Koran that God is talking to them
3: Koran 5:51 suggests Muslims are taught that Jews and Christians are NOT their friends
4: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is generalizing "All Christians and Jews are the same"
5: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is not allowing free will to a Muslim [And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them]

I as a Lover of Christ have I a friend who is a Muslim.
So the Koran is wrong to generalize and suggest that "Alle Christians and Jews are the same"
a): Hereby I have proven that the Koran should not be taken literally.
b): This proofs also the Koran is "False". If the word of God is considered the "Truth".

Knowing this:
Should one still regard the Koran as the book of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as the word of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as "God talking to us"?

[Idea: If the Koran claims to be the "Ultimate Truth" should then not all verses be "True"]

IMHO

Any comments?

Note: @Lvcifer Invictvs: pointed out correctly "should be in Quranic Debates". But as this post is about 1 verse I highlighted about how Koran sees "Christians/Jews" I think it is correct here afterall. But probable the title is not so clear. Can't change that anymore. Hope this note clears the confusion.

Well first a person should ask, As to who written the Q'uran seeing the Muslims prophet Muhammad could not read or write.

As to what has come down thru much studying, is that Muhammad had his wife write for him.
But how would muhammad know for sure what she was writing, Seeing Muhammad couldn't read ?

Then you have Muslims that will try to say, The bible copied the Q'uran which is impossible, seeing the old testament scriptures out date the Q'uran by about
3000 thousand years.
And the New Testament Scriptures out date the Q'uran by about 625 years.

So who copied who ?

Much of the q'uran was taken from the old testament scriptures and the new testament scriptures.and seeing muhammad twisted much into what he wanted to say.

Seeing Muhammad lived in the desert, Which is called today the Arabian Desert.

And seeing Christ Jesus had given prophecy and warning, about a false prophet in the desert. And Muhammad lived in the desert.

Matthew 24:Verse 24---"For there shall arise false Christ's, and false prophet's, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect"
Verse 26--"Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert: go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not"

 

[Faithofchristian]

To be fair, the NT tells Christians not to be friends with non-Christians, too:

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”[c]

17 Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”[d]
- 2 Corinthians 6:14-17

Lots of Christians interpret that as meaning they shouldn't have non-Christian friends, spouses or business partners. Just wanted to throw that out there before I see Christians be hypocrites in this thread. Carry on.

Well first if to what you say is right, Then maybe you can explain, Why did Christ Jesus send his 12 disciples to go teach those who were non-Christian?

Matthew 28:19--"Go you therefore, and teach all nations"
Therefore those Nations would be
non-Christians.

Even Christ Jesus told Peter not to call anyone unclean. But to go to them all and teach them. Acts 10:14,15.

So maybe you may want to Rethink yourself on that one.

 

[Sakeenah]

Hi Sakeenah,

Thanks for your feedback. Mis-interpretation indeed is many times the problem. I just meant "It's a challenging idea for some to consider that some verses can't be taken literal". But see now that it can give the feeling "just a game". My mistake. I'm not like that, I do have 1 desire "That the fight between Muslims and non-Muslims stops; and also other fights". To get there putting these hot-verses on the table is needed IMHO.

So thank you, that although my post was insensitive [not ask Muslim how they interpret] you took the time to take the hot edge off.
I agree that I was insensitive, but you should agree that the verse is written insensitive also, quite judgemental. I just read the english correct.


This is a quite demeaning part:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them"
Here is clearly stated "for friendship", so your explanation "about protectors" won't solve this

So the only answer would still be "Yes, I agree, this part is wrong". Then your given examples make sense. The verse is wrong or the translation is wrong; it has nothing to do with my lack of knowledge, nor with the context.

Trying to disguise this mistake is the seed for ISIS-like interpretations. Which both of us don't want. And I am truthful, the Bible also verses leading to violence. As a Lover of Christ I would Love them to take those verses out, or put them in red for being "False". 2000 years of religious wars using exactly this kind of verses is proof enough for me that these verses are "wrong" IMHO

Thanks for the video also. I am curious to see now.

I don't think this verse is insensitive,demeaning or judgemental. I've explained why in my previous post, so I don't think I need to repeat myself. I've read the verse in Arabic, looked the word up in Arabic the arabic dictionary, I also searched for the different interpretarions and majority say that the word Auwliya mean protector. Arabic words can mean different things depending on the context, but here it clearly means protector/supporter.

Well..ISIS actually interprets this verse exactly like you, this is because their goal is to divide people. So they would be more than happy to agree with you.

Your welcome, I hope the video will be beneficial.

 

[stvdv]

Well..ISIS actually interprets this verse exactly like you, this is because their goal is to divide people. So they would be more than happy to agree with you

I cannot read arabic. I do have 6 different translations (3eng + 3dutch). They all translate it the same
Reading your reply I have the feeling we talk about a different part of verse 5:51. I only talk about this part:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".

You say again it says in Arabic "protector". Do you mean that this translation:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".
should be:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for protector) is of them".
Meaning all my 6 translations are wrong? [I would not be surprised because I don't understand anything of arabic myself]

I and my Muslim friend are "friends and protector" of each other.
I and my Muslim friend have friendship but keep our own religions.
All I can say, is that for me and my Muslim friend verse 5:51 [friendship and protector impossible] is not a "Universal Truth", so it is a "Koran Truth"
And I agree that it is not good to keep repeating ourselves
So I think it is wise to agree to disagree

I did find verse 5:48: This verse we totally agree on [the translations I have].
And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.

Well..ISIS actually interprets this verse 5:51 exactly like you, this is because their goal is to divide people. So they would be more than happy to agree with you.
Let me assure you, ISIS will not be happy with me [they will kill me]. We have the same verse translation is true. But I reject the verse, they not. I am very happy to read that you reject ISIS and call them what I would call "blasphemists".

We both believe in verse 5:48 which says "God tests you by giving different scriptures, it was his plan to make more nations, more religions. Unto God we all return and He will tell you of that wheron you were at variance". I really look forward to that meeting. And I believe God is happy with you and with me.

I start loving the Koran more and more [for me it gets interesting when I forget the found differences needed to finding the common ground]

Dear Sakeenah, thank you so much for helping me to reach to this point, that I found this good solution (verse 5:48) that really works magic for me. I only have 1 desire [beside sometimes a chocolat bar] that "Peace be on Earth for all humans".

 

[Sakeenah]

I cannot read arabic. I do have 6 different translations (3eng + 3dutch). They all translate it the same
Reading your reply I have the feeling we talk about a different part of verse 5:51. I only talk about this part:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".

You say again it says in Arabic "protector". Do you mean that this translation:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".
should be:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for protector) is of them".
Meaning all my 6 translations are wrong? [I would not be surprised because I don't understand anything of arabic myself]

I and my Muslim friend are "friends and protector" of each other.
I and my Muslim friend have friendship but keep our own religions.
All I can say, is that for me and my Muslim friend verse 5:51 [friendship and protector impossible] is not a "Universal Truth", so it is a "Koran Truth"
And I agree that it is not good to keep repeating ourselves
So I think it is wise to agree to disagree

I did find verse 5:48: This verse we totally agree on [the translations I have].
And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.

Well..ISIS actually interprets this verse 5:51 exactly like you, this is because their goal is to divide people. So they would be more than happy to agree with you.
Let me assure you, ISIS will not be happy with me [they will kill me]. We have the same verse translation is true. But I reject the verse, they not. I am very happy to read that you reject ISIS and call them what I would call "blasphemists".

We both believe in verse 5:48 which says "God tests you by giving different scriptures, it was his plan to make more nations, more religions. Unto God we all return and He will tell you of that wheron you were at variance". I really look forward to that meeting. And I believe God is happy with you and with me.

I start loving the Koran more and more [for me it gets interesting when I forget the found differences needed to finding the common ground]

Dear Sakeenah, thank you so much for helping me to reach to this point, that I found this good solution (verse 5:48) that really works magic for me. I only have 1 desire [beside sometimes a chocolat bar] that "Peace be on Earth for all humans".

I agree, it's best to agree to disagree in regarding this verse, I said all that I could in regards to this verse.
Which Dutch translation are you using? I speak Dutch so I would like to check those translations out.

God created different people to get to know each other, so I'm glad you and your Muslim friends are able to respect each other's beliefs and find a common ground.

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female,
And made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other
(Not that ye despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)." 49:13

Welkom op de forum

 

[David T]

Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

1: Muslims believe the Koran is the word of God, so it's the "Ultimate Truth"
2: Muslims believe that when reading the Koran that God is talking to them
3: Koran 5:51 suggests Muslims are taught that Jews and Christians are NOT their friends
4: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is generalizing "All Christians and Jews are the same"
5: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is not allowing free will to a Muslim [And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them]

I as a Lover of Christ have I a friend who is a Muslim.
So the Koran is wrong to generalize and suggest that "Alle Christians and Jews are the same"
a): Hereby I have proven that the Koran should not be taken literally.
b): I and my Muslim friend are "friends and protector" of each other. For us verse 5:51 is "False"
c): I and my Muslim friend have friendship but keep our own religions. "False" again

Knowing this:
Should one still regard the Koran as the book of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as the word of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as "God talking to us"?

[If the Koran claims to be the "Ultimate Truth" should then not all verses be "True"]
[+verse 5:48 seems to complement verse 5:51 quite well]

IMHO

Note: @Sakeenah: Would have been nice if you asked Muslims to elaborate on verse 5:51

Note: @Sakeenah: Challenge in title not the best: My thought was it's a challenging idea. Not to challenge others, so seems oke [RF Rule1 "Don't quoting a member's post to challenge them"].

Note: @Lvcifer Invictvs: pointed out correctly "should be in Quranic Debates". But as this post is about 1 verse I highlighted about how Koran sees "Christians/Jews" I think it is correct here afterall. But probable the title is not so clear. Can't change that anymore. Hope this note clears the confusion.

KORAN.ABUSE... Christians do exactly the same thing to their text. It's a toss up who's better at it!!

 

[Faithofchristian]

I cannot read arabic. I do have 6 different translations (3eng + 3dutch). They all translate it the same
Reading your reply I have the feeling we talk about a different part of verse 5:51. I only talk about this part:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".

You say again it says in Arabic "protector". Do you mean that this translation:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".
should be:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for protector) is of them".
Meaning all my 6 translations are wrong? [I would not be surprised because I don't understand anything of arabic myself]

I and my Muslim friend are "friends and protector" of each other.
I and my Muslim friend have friendship but keep our own religions.
All I can say, is that for me and my Muslim friend verse 5:51 [friendship and protector impossible] is not a "Universal Truth", so it is a "Koran Truth"
And I agree that it is not good to keep repeating ourselves
So I think it is wise to agree to disagree

I did find verse 5:48: This verse we totally agree on [the translations I have].
And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.

Well..ISIS actually interprets this verse 5:51 exactly like you, this is because their goal is to divide people. So they would be more than happy to agree with you.
Let me assure you, ISIS will not be happy with me [they will kill me]. We have the same verse translation is true. But I reject the verse, they not. I am very happy to read that you reject ISIS and call them what I would call "blasphemists".

We both believe in verse 5:48 which says "God tests you by giving different scriptures, it was his plan to make more nations, more religions. Unto God we all return and He will tell you of that wheron you were at variance". I really look forward to that meeting. And I believe God is happy with you and with me.

I start loving the Koran more and more [for me it gets interesting when I forget the found differences needed to finding the common ground]

Dear Sakeenah, thank you so much for helping me to reach to this point, that I found this good solution (verse 5:48) that really works magic for me. I only have 1 desire [beside sometimes a chocolat bar] that "Peace be on Earth for all humans".

If I may ask, as to how much does your Muslim friend know about the q'uran ?

And have you any idea as to who written the Q'uran ?

 

[stvdv]

If I may ask, as to how much does your Muslim friend know about the q'uran ?

And have you any idea as to who written the Q'uran ?

My friend knows more than most others about the Koran
I think the Koran has been written for the Muslim people

My most important point here is:
We have mutual respect for each others religion
And I feel happy about this kind of friendship

 

[Faithofchristian]

My friend knows more than most others about the Koran
I think the Koran has been written for the Muslim people

My most important point here is:
We have mutual respect for each others religion
And I feel happy about this kind of friendship

That's all I wanted to know., That you answered everything and still don't know, Now that's is amazing in it's self.

 

[Cateau]

To be fair, the NT tells Christians not to be friends with non-Christians, too:

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”[c]

17 Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”[d]
- 2 Corinthians 6:14-17

Lots of Christians interpret that as meaning they shouldn't have non-Christian friends, spouses or business partners. Just wanted to throw that out there before I see Christians be hypocrites in this thread. Carry on.

It's not hypocritical to say one or the other, it's a warning you can choose to listen to or not. The bible also states one can marry a non-believer (perhaps they would see the light in the end.) And it paints a positive and negative light on marrying into other cultures and bringing up your children in them.

Both perspectives made extremely good points defending themselves and the reason it could bring you closer or farther from god, but you don't really have to think about it much to understand there is more risk to your faith by marrying a non-believer, or into another culture that probably has it's own dieties, or making friends with those of another faith.

Sure the Son of Man made friends/preached to those deemed unworthy at the time to be affiliated with so we should follow His example. But taking into account we should live by His example by not letting ourselves become as unto Solomon who went against his faith from the pressure of his wives.

The Bible states many things, it has different authors of different times but the principal topic is to learn from the people of it. Daniel for example befriended many pagan kings, even changed their faith through the miracle of not being eaten by lions in the den (he was thrown in like 7 or 9 times lol.) But every new king was a new challenge for him b/c he had to start from zero with them.

But hey, if someone is willing to be your friend regardless of being pagan why not, or if you fall in love with someone of another race and your children learn to speak another tongue and grow up in that culture why not, or if you marry a non-believer why not.....well we should already know that answer before going into any relationship but regarding god as number one in everything should stabilize opposition.

 

[stvdv]

That you answered everything and still don't know, Now that's is amazing in it's self

It feels you draw conclusions the wrong way "about me and my life".
I try to know myself You seem to try to know me, not yourself.
That's what amazes and amuses me.

 

[FearGod]

Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

1: Muslims believe the Koran is the word of God, so it's the "Ultimate Truth"
2: Muslims believe that when reading the Koran that God is talking to them
3: Koran 5:51 suggests Muslims are taught that Jews and Christians are NOT their friends
4: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is generalizing "All Christians and Jews are the same"
5: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is not allowing free will to a Muslim [And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them]

I as a Lover of Christ have I a friend who is a Muslim.
So the Koran is wrong to generalize and suggest that "Alle Christians and Jews are the same"
a): Hereby I have proven that the Koran should not be taken literally.
b): I and my Muslim friend are "friends and protector" of each other. For us verse 5:51 is "False"
c): I and my Muslim friend have friendship but keep our own religions. "False" again

Knowing this:
Should one still regard the Koran as the book of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as the word of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as "God talking to us"?

[If the Koran claims to be the "Ultimate Truth" should then not all verses be "True"]
[+verse 5:48 seems to complement verse 5:51 quite well]

IMHO

Note: @Sakeenah: Would have been nice if you asked Muslims to elaborate on verse 5:51

Note: @Sakeenah: Challenge in title not the best: My thought was it's a challenging idea. Not to challenge others, so seems oke [RF Rule1 "Don't quoting a member's post to challenge them"].

Note: @Lvcifer Invictvs: pointed out correctly "should be in Quranic Debates". But as this post is about 1 verse I highlighted about how Koran sees "Christians/Jews" I think it is correct here afterall. But probable the title is not so clear. Can't change that anymore. Hope this note clears the confusion.

Actually the quran is proven to be correct because that is the case, it isn't about individuals
but the big picture.

Why the quran has to mention that the Jews and Christians will be friends even though that
in reality Jews don't accept Jesus and even accused him of being a son of whore.

God knows that Jews and Christians will be against Islam, don't you think that is the case today?

 

[Estro Felino]

Why the quran has to mention that the Jews and Christians will be friends even though that
in reality Jews don't accept Jesus and even accused him of being a son of whore.

God knows that Jews and Christians will be against Islam, don't you think that is the case today?

I'm speechless

You have to explain as of why. you were shocked.

To begin with, Jews are not supposed to accept any Jesus, any Buddha, any Shiva.