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Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

  • Total voters
    17
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
FearGod said:
Actually the quran is proven to be correct because that is the case, it isn't about individuals
but the big picture.

Why the quran has to mention that the Jews and Christians will be friends even though that
in reality Jews don't accept Jesus and even accused him of being a son of whore.

God knows that Jews and Christians will be against Islam, don't you think that is the case today?
Click to expand...

It's not that Jews and Christians are against Muslims.
But Muslims are against Jews and Christians.
Why is that Muslims are against every man and every man is against Muslims.
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
FearGod said:
Actually the quran is proven to be correct because that is the case, it isn't about individuals
but the big picture.

Why the quran has to mention that the Jews and Christians will be friends even though that
in reality Jews don't accept Jesus and even accused him of being a son of whore.

God knows that Jews and Christians will be against Islam, don't you think that is the case today?
Click to expand...

Actually the Q'uran is copied from the bible.
Seeing that the old testament scriptures alone out dates the q'uran about
3000 thousand years.
And the new testament scriptures alone out dates the q'uran about 625 years.

The q'uran came to be around the
year 625 A.D.

If you read the q'uran, you would see alot of the q'uran is taken from the bible.

But the question is, Who wrote the q'uran?
 
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F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
FearGod said:
Actually the quran is proven to be correct because that is the case, it isn't about individuals
but the big picture.

Why the quran has to mention that the Jews and Christians will be friends even though that
in reality Jews don't accept Jesus and even accused him of being a son of whore.

God knows that Jews and Christians will be against Islam, don't you think that is the case today?
Click to expand...

Why do you suppose Jews and Christians are friends ?
Have you any idea as to why ?
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
stvdv said:
It feels you draw conclusions the wrong way "about me and my life".
I try to know myself You seem to try to know me, not yourself.
That's what amazes and amuses me.
Click to expand...

What's really amazing, is that you have no clue or idea what Muslims are about.
That's what's amazing.

You think Muslims will be a friend, just to be a friend.
Have you really read the Muslims q'uran ?
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Faithofchristian said:
It's not that Jews and Christians are against Muslims.
But Muslims are against Jews and Christians.
Why is that Muslims are against every man and every man is against Muslims.
Click to expand...

Not true, very false.

We were taught in school to be friendly and that is according to the Islamic teachings.


 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
FearGod said:
Actually the quran is proven to be correct because that is the case, it isn't about individuals
but the big picture. Why the quran has to mention that the Jews and Christians will be friends even though that in reality Jews don't accept Jesus and even accused him of being a son of whore. God knows that Jews and Christians will be against Islam, don't you think that is the case today?
Click to expand...

You have a beautiful quote below your messages. The first one is quite good, and knowing evolution goes slow the second most of the time is true also. I do not agree with your generalizing comments on Jews, Christians, Muslims. But having your 2 points below in mind, I say "Let's agree to disagree". And wishing you a peaceful day.
1-Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity.
2-We can't fix stupid
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Faithofchristian said:
What's really amazing, is that you have no clue or idea what Muslims are about.
That's what's amazing.
You think Muslims will be a friend, just to be a friend.
Have you really read the Muslims q'uran ?
Click to expand...

You again proved my point "You seem to know perfectly what I think, feel and believe".
There is not much I am 100% sure of, but 100% sure you know nothing about me
I decide "Let's agree to disagree". So the 100% will not change in the near future
Love, Peace and Blessings to you
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Faithofchristian said:
Then how is it in the Muslims q'uran, that Jews and Christians are infidel's.
And Muslims are to have nothing to do with infidel's.
Only to become friends with Jews and Christians until Muslims can conquer the infidel's.
Click to expand...

That what you think and supposing.
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
stvdv said:
You have a beautiful quote below your messages. The first one is quite good, and knowing evolution goes slow the second most of the time is true also. I do not agree with your generalizing comments on Jews, Christians, Muslims. But having your 2 points below in mind, I say "Let's agree to disagree". And wishing you a peaceful day.
1-Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity.
2-We can't fix stupid
Click to expand...

You're free for what you want to believe.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Is the matter with the Qur'an even one of whether it should be taken literally?

Somehow I don't think that is quite the case. The Qur'an is not very much like the Bible in that respect. Nor is Islaam much like Christianity.

The Qur'an should be taken with an open and rational mind, sure - although that very quickly leads towards disregarding it entirely. But there is not a lot of room for choosing between literal and symbolic readings in that text, far as I know.

Instead, what room for actual debate there is in Islaam regarding the scripture tends to center on what should be considered abrogated (Naskh), if anything.

There is quite some controversial content in the Qur'an, but it is very much of a take-it-or-leave-it nature. There is not a lot of room to perceive very specific promises of eternal validity of the text symbolicaly, for instance.

Edited to add: there is also an entirely absurd amount of discussion about the validity of the Ahadith, which is both impossible to settle in any meaningful way (Ahadith can be freely accepted or rejected for the most part, on an almost case-by-case basis) and besides the point IMO. While Ahadith and Sira are significant parts of Islaamic doctrine, they are literally forbidden to over-rule the Qur'an.

Also, I originally used the word "tafsir" for abrogation above. It is really "naskh".
 
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sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
stvdv said:
I cannot read arabic. I do have 6 different translations (3eng + 3dutch). They all translate it the same
Reading your reply I have the feeling we talk about a different part of verse 5:51. I only talk about this part:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".

You say again it says in Arabic "protector". Do you mean that this translation:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them".
should be:
"And he amongst you that turns to them (for protector) is of them".
Meaning all my 6 translations are wrong? [I would not be surprised because I don't understand anything of arabic myself]

I and my Muslim friend are "friends and protector" of each other.
I and my Muslim friend have friendship but keep our own religions.
All I can say, is that for me and my Muslim friend verse 5:51 [friendship and protector impossible] is not a "Universal Truth", so it is a "Koran Truth"
And I agree that it is not good to keep repeating ourselves
So I think it is wise to agree to disagree

I did find verse 5:48: This verse we totally agree on [the translations I have].
And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.

Well..ISIS actually interprets this verse 5:51 exactly like you, this is because their goal is to divide people. So they would be more than happy to agree with you.
Let me assure you, ISIS will not be happy with me [they will kill me]. We have the same verse translation is true. But I reject the verse, they not. I am very happy to read that you reject ISIS and call them what I would call "blasphemists".

We both believe in verse 5:48 which says "God tests you by giving different scriptures, it was his plan to make more nations, more religions. Unto God we all return and He will tell you of that wheron you were at variance". I really look forward to that meeting. And I believe God is happy with you and with me.

I start loving the Koran more and more [for me it gets interesting when I forget the found differences needed to finding the common ground]

Dear Sakeenah, thank you so much for helping me to reach to this point, that I found this good solution (verse 5:48) that really works magic for me. I only have 1 desire [beside sometimes a chocolat bar] that "Peace be on Earth for all humans".
Click to expand...
I have a scholarly Cambridge translation. It says,

O you who believe! Take not Jews and Christians as protectors. They are the protectors of one another. And whosoever takes them as protectors , surely he is of them. Truly God guides not wrongdoing people.

This says Muslim communities should not make protection alliances with Jewish and Christian communities.
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
sayak83 said:
I have a scholarly Cambridge translation. It says,

O you who believe! Take not Jews and Christians as protectors. They are the protectors of one another. And whosoever takes them as protectors , surely he is of them. Truly God guides not wrongdoing people.

This says Muslim communities should not make protection alliances with Jewish and Christian communities.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for this. This is what I was exactly asking. I have 9 translations, all with "friends" instead of "protectors".

Now it makes sense to me. Today I read that Muslim is forbidden to use "Namastee" and should stick to his own greetings. The reason they said was
"don't imitate other religions", so stick to your own religion. And the Koran also says that others can use whatever greeting they like "like namastee" to greet the Muslim. And Muslim should always be friendly if other greets him. So this made sense to me now.

Now I can use the above line of thinking also in verse 5:51. Of course they should have Allah as their protector and don't imitate and rely on others [I said 30y ago to God, when doctors told me I was about to die, God I want you as my protector, my doctor, no more hospitals. And God took care of me, already 30 years]. So I not only understand it now, I totally agree with it, because this is how I also live.

I'm glad I continued asking, though I felt myself quite pushing towards Sakeenah. As far as I read it, "friends" is not mentioned anywhere in this verse. And "protectors" viewpoint I totally understand why now. And all the verses around agree with it also. Only this verse gave me trouble.

So Sayak83 you totally made my day. I could not believe this verse to be true using the word "friend". And it did upset me a lot. Because I do believe that would be a stupid mistake in the Koran. Luckily it was only in the 9 translations I have. Which, by the way, I find quite stupid thing to do in 9 translations. That no other Koran scholar ever tried to get such mistake out, I don't understand. Because with the word "friend" it so VERY, VERY, VERY wrong this verse.
 
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