Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

[McBell]

If you toast several million pieces of bread you’ll get one with a Jesus face. Voila, a miracle. Post a pic of your Jesus toast once you’ve converted.

For a measly $34.95 you do not have to toast millions of pieces to get Jesus

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www.thisiswhyimbroke.com

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Or appears to. We don't know. That's what makes it inexplicable. We call it a 'miracle' not because we know it defied natural law. But because we dont know that it didn't.

Your distinction doesn't make a difference. If natural law is defined descriptively based on what we observe occurs, how could anything we observe ever even appear to defy natural law?

That's a bias we can't support, since we don't know the limitations of "natural law". All we know is what we think they might be according to what things look like to us.

But we do know the limitations of natural law: it's limited to what actually happens. Our understanding of what actually happens is our understanding of natural law.

All a 'miracle' is, is something that looks like it defied natural law. But that doesn't mean that it did. Or that it didn't. It just means that it appeared to, to us.

There is no contradiction when you accept that we don;t know when or if anything defied natural law or not. All we're talking about here are how things appeared to people at the time. And people are not very reliable witnesses.

There's a contradiction if natural law is defined descriptively, which it is.

If you're going to suggest we define natural law prescriptively, well that would be a change. And good luck, since you're going to have to account not only for our current understanding of nature but all of our future understanding of it.

 

[PureX]

Your distinction doesn't make a difference. If natural law is defined descriptively based on what we observe occurs, how could anything we observe ever even appear to defy natural law?

Easy, we don't know that what we observe is or is not defying natural law because we don't know the limits of natural law. Your presumption here is that if we know "X" then we can't claim that it's "not X". But we don't know "X" or "not X". We just think we do. So when something occurs outside our presumptions, we think it's "miraculous" (not X). But we can't know that it is. Any more than we can know that it's not.

The point being that the term "miracle" does not claim something IS supernatural. It claims that we perceive it as being supernatural. And we can do that because we don't know the limitations of the natural realm.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think mentality can have a lot to do with our personal health.
At least something that can promote a positive mental outlook can't hurt.

Hormones like adrenaline and dopiness has been proven to block pain receptors. Certainly spiritual belief/experiences can release those in the body.

That is true and a positive mental benefit that can be had through religion no doubt is invaluable in its own right.

It's important however to note the limitations which some religious ignore when it comes to overall health and well being and take higher chances which may or may not work without medical care being included in as well.

Thankfully @Koldo is one of the smart ones in that regard.

 

[Viker]

Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.

Seeing that you may not be interested, I am a little sad. I was hoping to prove to you the "miracles" of diabolism/diabolatry, sinister witchcraft, black magic, etc. But now I won't. Too bad for you. That was your last chance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.

Atheist arrogance is just as disgusting as Christian arrogance. It's seen here in the assumption "you must reflect...because of your upbringing." It is a reasonable assumption that most people hold their religious views simply because it's how they were raised but this position ignores that many, including the religious, grew up something else and converted later in life.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's important however to note the limitations which some religious ignore when it comes to overall health and well being and take higher chances which may or may not work without medical care being included in as well.

There's also the reality that every study suggesting prayer works there's a study that shows it makes recovery longer and harder. Many, particularly Christians, love to preach their religion gives hope in the face of death, but what they don't tell us that it gives some people horrible, terrible, nightmarish fears in the face of death because they believe after death it's going to get unimaginably worse for them. They don't talk of the childhoods that were ruined and traumatized over their doctrines of eternal punishments and suffering. They don't speak of the existentialist anxieties that come from believing in a panoptic god who is ever willing and eager to roast your *** for the slightest, most trivial and petty of offenses.

 

[Quintessence]

There's far more to religions than supposed miracles. Many folks go through and reflect on their beliefs without miracles having anything to do with it.

But it's so much easier to hate on "religion" when you ignore it's diversity and complexity. Stop ruining the OP!

 

[idea]

... All of the world's wmd's were created by scientists and engineers....

Who serves humans? Protects? Feeds? Houses? Transports? Connects? Who does the most good and serves the most? All of the world's homes, airplanes, telephones, hospitals, roads, water purification plants, radios, telescopes, microscopes, computers - walk away from your house and most of what is in it if you think engineers are evil.

You need to read the story - of who founded the noble peace prize, and who really created bombs.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All of the world's wmd's were created by scientists and engineers.

And yet all those weapons of mass destruction have come nowhere near the death toll humanity has suffered at the hands of religious people armed only with swords and zealotry.

 

[idea]

I believe I can lol. The proof is all around you but you only see with eyes of skepticism.

confirmation bias works all ways for everyone:

 

[Koldo]

A willingness on the part of their customers, to bet money on an outcome without access to all the pertinent information, is the reason bookmaking is such a lucrative business. I suggest you avoid gambling until you learn this important life lesson.

Don't worry. I have all the pertinent information to make this bet.

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

How do you think that a miracle could be proven to you unless you actually witnessed that miracle firsthand?
Otherwise that miracle would only be something written on pages in a book.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.

Why do you believe that all believers hold beliefs because of miracles?
I was not brought up with any religious beliefs, I came to them in adulthood.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except that ye see signs and wonders, ye do not believe...

I do not need to see signs and wonders in order to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Come on... You know how this ends.

So do I.

 

[Madsaac]

Miracles are to strengthen those who already trust the giver of the miracle (God). Long-ago miracles cannot be proven by men to anyone. Miracles happen today. I have witnessed them; been involved in their occurrence. Nor can these contemporary miracles be proven to anyone by another. But they are real, as is God.

Bad information leads to distrust in, and of, God. Which results in no miracles in that person's life. Or it results in that person not being able to discern miracles in his life. Sounds like you've been given bad information.

Yes, what are these miracles that you have witnessed? I seriously would love to know.

 

[Madsaac]

Are you not happy being the person you are?

No I'm vey happy thanks mate, I'm still waiting for someone to show me evidence of a miracle?

 

[McBell]

No I'm vey happy thanks mate, I'm still waiting for someone to show me evidence of a miracle?

You have not defined the parameters.

 

[Madsaac]

There's a magician and a boy who is his real son.

Now, does this magician need to show some magic to that boy in order to prove himself as his father ?

There's a Father -nd- Son relationship between God -nd- His creation.
There's NOT Magician -nd- Audience relationship between God -nd- His creation.

Definitely, if my father said he was a magician but couldn't show me any magic, then I would consider him false.

 

[Madsaac]

Or, you might reflect on why someone would want as a convert a person who would pose such a silly ask.

Why is it silly, because it cannot be done.