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Canada now rewards terrorists

A government that can violate our rights without consequence is much more dangerous than any terrorist.

A symbolic figure of $1 or $10 million makes zero difference to the government. It's not like $10 million of tax payers money is any real deterrent to a politician who suffers no personal costs.

We have already agreed there can be consequences that do not involve funding terrorism and extremism which is the inevitable consequence of the policy you are endorsing (I assume you accept this last point).

Should victims of any later terrorist attack also get the right to sue the government for its role in facilitating terror?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
We have already agreed there can be consequences that do not involve funding terrorism and extremism which is the inevitable consequence of the policy you are endorsing (I assume you accept this last point).

Should victims of any later terrorist attack also get the right to sue the government for its role in facilitating terror?
The court's decision is not "policy." It's a unique case.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
A symbolic figure of $1 or $10 million makes zero difference to the government. It's not like $10 million of tax payers money is any real deterrent to a politician who suffers no personal costs.
The behaviour of the Canadian government suggests otherwise. Right now, we have a number of people who are having to deal with serious political fallout so that Khadr will get $10M less than would probably happen otherwise. That $10M difference matters to them a great deal, apparently.

We have already agreed there can be consequences that do not involve funding terrorism and extremism which is the inevitable consequence of the policy you are endorsing (I assume you accept this last point).
Frankly, I'm not clear at all on what you're proposing.

There are laws against anyone in Canada funding terrorism. There are financial controls to stop this from happening. Khadr would almost certainly get extra scrutiny in this department. I've already said that I'm open to strengthening these protections and laws if you don't think they're strong enough right now to do their job. You haven't touched this suggestion at all, which implies to me that it's not what you're after. Whether this is because you don't think it's a viable option for stopping the flow of money to terrorists or because this whole "don't fund terrorism" thing is just a cover for your real goals, only you know.

Regardless, in Canada - as in most countries - when someone's rights are violated, they're entitled to sue the person who wronged them and get an award for damages. You imply that you want to change this important legal principle.

You say that you don't want Omar Khadr to get any money from the government; on what grounds? Supreme Court rulings on his "conviction" have pretty well established that, if it were only up to Canadian law, his conviction ought to be overturned. Omar Khadr does not have any convictions that meet the standards of Canadian law; as far as the law is concerned, he's an innocent man. He isn't even on the no-fly list. How would you change the law to stop Khadr from getting his settlement? What criteria would you use?

There's already a mechanism to stop terrorists from profiting from terrorism: the courts. If that Utah civil trial had respected jurisprudence enough for Canadian courts to honour its judgement (and if it had established wrongdoing by Khadr while doing that), then it would have been a simple matter for the plaintiffs to have a Canadian court redirect the settlement money to them.

Those plaintiffs still have the option of suing Khadr in Canada. If they can establish Khadr's wrongdoing under Canadian law in a fair and just court, then they'll be able to get money from Khadr. They haven't done that yet, though, so we don't pre-judge what this decision would be (if the Utah plaintiffs decide to bring a case forward at all).

You seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't wait for Khadr to be properly convicted before we treat him as convicted under the law. This violates the principles of fundamental justice.

You may be convinced that Khadr committed acts of terrorism, but this has not been properly established according to the law. In a nation of laws that upholds justice, we do not punish people until their guilt has been established by a fair and competent court.

Don't you understand how dangerous it is to give a government the power to deny a person's rights when it hasn't been properly established to the courts that he's done anything wrong?

Should victims of any later terrorist attack also get the right to sue the government for its role in facilitating terror?
What are you talking about? What terrorist attack?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
@Augustus - this is how it would normally work:

1. A criminal is convicted in court.

2. The criminal's victims (or survivors of the victims) sue the criminal and get a judgement against him for damages.

3. If the criminal comes into any money (e.g. a settlement in his own lawsuit), that money is used to pay out the judgement until the entire amount of the judgememt has been paid.

For Omar Khadr, as far as Canadian law is concerned, steps 1 and 2 haven't happened yet, so they aren't making step 3 happen.

If you think that Khadr really is guilty of a crime and that steps 1 and 2 should have happened, then get angry at the Americans for their mismanagement of the case and their miscarriages of justice. Don't start trying to dismantle our legal system so that our government is free to disregard the rights of its citizens or so that we can punish people who you're pretty sure are guilty but haven't had their guilt established in court.
 

UpperLimits

Active Member
Well, if you file a lawsuit against the people who violated your rights, and if you stand a good chance of winning, there's a good chance they'll offer you a settlement of half of what you calculate your damages to be, too.
LOL. Yeah. Right! ..... Wrong skin color, dude!
 

UpperLimits

Active Member
... Omar Khadr does not have any convictions that meet the standards of Canadian law; as far as the law is concerned, he's an innocent man. He isn't even on the no-fly list. ...
I'm not sure how you'd know that, being that the average Canadian or American doesn't even know if they're on the list until they try to get on a plane. In any event it would be interesting to see if he "could" get on a plane from Edmonton to Toronto, being that the flight path goes over northern Michigan, and the American administration has the the final say as to who can get on that plane.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm not sure how you'd know that, being that the average Canadian or American doesn't even know if they're on the list until they try to get on a plane. In any event it would be interesting to see if he "could" get on a plane from Edmonton to Toronto, being that the flight path goes over northern Michigan, and the American administration has the the final say as to who can get on that plane.
I know because he's travelled on planes recently.

From 2015:
TORONTO – Former Guantanamo Bay prisoner Omar Khadr has landed in Toronto on Thursday for a court-approved visit to his grandparents.

Khadr’s lawyer Dennis Edney says Khadr arrived in Toronto from Edmonton, dispelling earlier doubts that he might have been on Canada’s no-fly list, which could have prevented him from travelling.
Omar Khadr in Toronto on court-approved visit with grandparents - CityNews

There are other examples, but I assume that will do.

I'm not sure the no-fly list for Canadian domestic flights that cross into US airspace works the way you describe, but at the very least, he's apparently not on the Canadian no-fly list.
 

UpperLimits

Active Member
I know because he's travelled on planes recently.

From 2015:

Omar Khadr in Toronto on court-approved visit with grandparents - CityNews

There are other examples, but I assume that will do.

I'm not sure the no-fly list for Canadian domestic flights that cross into US airspace works the way you describe, but at the very least, he's apparently not on the Canadian no-fly list.
Fair enough. There ARE routes which go around Lake Superior. Depending on the route he may have been allowed.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I have several times, actually.

The only thing you have said is "tortured".
From all I can gather his "interrogation" fell within what is permissible under the US Army Field Manual 34-52. If you have any other information, how about providing it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That happens a lot in war zones. Hadn't the victims just called in an airstrike on the compound?
Tom
Yes. Khadr was badly injured in that air strike... which raises the question of whether he was even capable of throwing the grenade.

At the time, the troops who were there didn't think that he had thrown it. The original mission debrief report identified that the grenade had been thrown by a middle-aged man, who was shot and killed immediately after. It was only years later that the debrief was amended to identify Khadr as the person who threw the grenade... though all still acknowledge that it was lobbed over a wall, so nobody actually saw who threw it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The only thing you have said is "tortured".
From all I can gather his "interrogation" fell within what is permissible under the US Army Field Manual 34-52. If you have any other information, how about providing it.
I don't give a rat's hind quarters about your Army manual. The standards I care about are the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Geneva Conventions, the Constitution of the United States, and (when it comes to the actions of Canadian officials) the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Any conduct that violates these standards is illegal, regardless of whether it's endorsed by an Army manual.

"I was just following orders" fell out of fashion as an excuse for illegal military conduct after World War II.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I don't give a rat's hind quarters about your Army manual. The standards I care about are the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Geneva Conventions, the Constitution of the United States, and (when it comes to the actions of Canadian officials) the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Any conduct that violates these standards is illegal, regardless of whether it's endorsed by an Army manual.

"I was just following orders" fell out of fashion as an excuse for illegal military conduct after World War II.
And I don't give a rat's hind quarters about what you care about. (and this is not a "joke").
 
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