Can you Unravel the Mystery?

[Ebionite]

Let the bible tell us who this Harlot is. The city of Jerusalem

Isaiah 1:21 "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers."

101G.

This is consistent with the key of David:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 3:7-9

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Isaiah 22:22

The pool of Siloam:

Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
Isaiah 22:11

The Council of Jerusalem provides the connection between the Pharisees as the Synagogue of Satan and Pauline Christianity.

But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person) for they who seemed [to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me:
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Galatians 2:6-10

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The government of the Commonwealth is called the Crown.

The verse does say "the crown".

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Isaiah 28:1

So is that what you think of when you hear the words "the crown". The government of the commonwealth. But do you think, and are you sure that is what the verse means?


How can someone possibly learn something new if they keep attaching and interpreting what they hear into something they already know?

It says the crown of pride.
Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Isaiah 28:1


Here it says the crown of glory:
In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people, Isaiah 28:5

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 1 Peter 5:4


But the pride of the glory is stained:
The Lord of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth. Isaiah 23:9


Consider the glory of wine, and also consider the shameful spewing.

Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory. Habbakuk 2:16

 

[Ebionite]

So is that what you think of when you hear the words "the crown". The government of the commonwealth. But do you think, and are you sure that is what the verse means?

All of it is open to interpretation. Within the wider context of the lion in the book of Daniel, the status of Ephraim from Genesis, and the modern affirmation of the union of the church and state, I'm sure.

How can someone possibly learn something new if they keep attaching and interpreting what they hear into something they already know?

Confirmation bias can be a problem. IMO it comes down to testing competing intepretations for completeness and internal consistency.

Consider the glory of wine, and also consider the shameful spewing.

What glory of wine are you referring to? The shameful spewing of Habakkuk 2:16 relates to the nakedness of the previous verse.

Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked.
Lamentations 4:21

And back to Jerusalem:

The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem.
Lamentations 4:12

 

[Link]

On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.”
Revelation 17:5​

Notable features

Babylon the Great is described as​

• the great prostitute
• sitting on many waters,
• committed sexual immorality with the kings of the earth
• making earth’s inhabitants drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality
• sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast
• clothed in purple and scarlet
• adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls
• having in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her sexual immorality
• the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth
• drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus
• the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth

Additional clues to unravel the mystery

• (Revelation 17:9-13) 9 The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction. 12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.
• (Revelation 17:15) . . .“The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.
• (Revelation 18:3) . . .the merchants of the earth became rich owing to the power of her shameless luxury. . .
• (Revelation 18:5) . . .her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. . .
• (Revelation 18:7) . . .she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury. . . she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning. 
• (Revelation 18:22-23) 22 . . .the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp, of musicians, of flutists, and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again. And no craftsman who practices any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again. 23 No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices all the nations were misled.

What is the identity of Babylon the Great?
These features, and references leaves us in no doubt! The Mother Harlot, Babylon the Great can be nothing other than religion. Notably, since she has God's displeasure, she has to be false religion. This is supported by the warning God gives... “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. . . (Revelation 18:4-5)

Thus, keeping in consistency with scripture, Babylon the Great represents all religion that is false from God's perspective.
What else can it be, based on scriptural references?

Nope, it's particularly the Jibt and Taghut and society of Gog and Magog. They are the ones who have corrupted all religions from the originals, and today they rule the US.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All of it is open to interpretation. Within the wider context of the lion in the book of Daniel, the status of Ephraim from Genesis, and the modern affirmation of the union of the church and state, I'm sure.

Just because people can't agree doesn't mean it is open. Show me your interpretation.

So how is the lion in the book of Daniel the commonwealth? Is the connection because you know the lion has been used as a British symbol?

Do you think every time either the word lion or Ephraim is mentioned it refers to the commonwealth, or just one verse?

Can you connect the lion and Ephraim together on their own (so commonwealth is not the only connection) in support of the possibility of the three being connected?

Confirmation bias can be a problem. IMO it comes down to testing competing interpretations for completeness and internal consistency.

Misunderstanding can also be a problem. We think that we understand something because we interpret everything we hear into a way that we can understand. We can think we understand, and be wrong. Because if we attach new information into the wrong places of our existing information our understanding is wrong, we have missed it, and misunderstood.

It would be best to try to listen in as many different ways as possible and select an educated more likely understanding.
That helps with trying to figure out what anyone says.

What glory of wine are you referring to? The shameful spewing of Habakkuk 2:16 relates to the nakedness of the previous verse.

I was referring to the wine and the drunkards of Ephraim, the verses of the crown of pride that fades, and the crown of glory that doesn't fade. And the said staining of the pride of all glory. So the pride becomes shameful. Shameful spewing is on the glory.


I can go into some more detail of the glory of wine. Wine is one of the three different glories. There is the glory of bread, the glory of oil, and the glory of wine.

Which is a repeat of these same three glories:

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 1 Corinthians 15:41

So wine glory is the same thing as saying sun glory.

So like the shameful spewing of wine, there is also shame on the sun:

Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. Isaiah 24:23

Glory1 - Glory2 - Glory3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun


Sun glory is also in the fixed position with these other three glories: spear glory, sword glory, and bow glory.

These three glories:
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13

Are connected to the three glories:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habbakuk 3:11

So consider the verse above. Fixed positions. The moon and spear is one glory, the sun and bow is another glory.


Glory1 - Glory2 - Glory3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Wine, Sun, and Bow are all the same one Glory.

Ephraim is connected to wine glory, and that is why it is said Ephraim has a bow.

The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle. Psalm 78:9

Because bow glory is connected to wine glory. Same glory.

The shameful spewing of Habakkuk 2:16 relates to the nakedness

Yes that is correct. So you acknowledge the wine is related to the nakedness.
So consider the nakedness of Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit. They became as Gods, and in doing so they lost their hearts.

Shame on them.

 

[Ebionite]

Just because people can't agree doesn't mean it is open. Show me your interpretation.

By open what I mean is that people are free to accept my interpretation, reject it, or propose an alternative. In general language, my interpretation is that we are living in the time of the end and that involves coming to terms with a proof of the power of the divine over human affairs.

So how is the lion in the book of Daniel the commonwealth? Is the connection because you know the lion has been used as a British symbol?

That's part of it. The lion is the dominant animal of the English coat or arms, and the symbolism continues with the separation of the wings. The wings belong to the eagle on the Great Seal of the United States, the separation being symbolic of the revolutionary war and the declaration of independence.

Do you think every time either the word lion or Ephraim is mentioned it refers to the commonwealth, or just one verse?

The lion doesn't always refer to the Commonwealth, eg Ezekiel 19 or Hosea 5:14, so probably just one verse. Ephraim obviously only referred to one man in the original case, but there may be other prophetic references to the present time.

Misunderstanding can also be a problem. We think that we understand something because we interpret everything we hear into a way that we can understand. We can think we understand, and be wrong. Because if we attach new information into the wrong places of our existing information our understanding is wrong, we have missed it, and misunderstood.

It would be best to try to listen in as many different ways as possible and select an educated more likely understanding.
That helps with trying to figure out what anyone says.

I agree.

I was referring to the wine and the drunkards of Ephraim, the verses of the crown of pride that fades, and the crown of glory that doesn't fade. And the said staining of the pride of all glory. So the pride becomes shameful. Shameful spewing is on the glory.

I only found one reference to the group of bread, oil, and wine.

And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart.
Psalms 104:15

I don't see any connection between wine and glory here, or between glory and the drunkards of Ephraim.

Paul is making an association between glory and his doctrine of the resurrection:

[There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:41-43

There's a connection between that doctrine and bread, oil, and wine via the symbolism of communion and the symbolism of spirit, but there are other groups of three that don't have any apparent relationship with this, eg

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:7-8

Nehemiah 4:13 relates to the rebuilding of the temple, there's no obvious association with glory there.

IMO to make the case that glory is related to your groups of three you should be able to explain your rationale for including them but rejecting other groups of three.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I only found one reference to the group of bread, oil, and wine.

And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart.
Psalms 104:15

I don't see any connection between wine and glory here, or between glory and the drunkards of Ephraim.

Yeah there is that one. There are also other direct references to the group that you might have missed. Like here:

And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22

It also refers to the bread, oil, and wine group of glories.



The corn is in the place of bread glory. It is still the same exact group. As corn means grain, and grain is for making bread.

Just as the olive is for making the oil:
And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. Exodus 27:20

And the grape is for making the wine:
Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. Deuteronomy 28:39

So there are corn, olives, and grapes, just as there is bread, oil, and wine.



Here are some more direct references:
Just as the oliveyard has olives for oil, the vineyard has grapes for wine, and the field has corn for bread.


But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Exodus 23:11

And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 1 Samuel 8:14


So the grouping of bread, oil, and wine is more than one verse.

Consider the fields, oliveyards, and vineyards.
Consider the corn, olives, and grapes.
Consider the bread, the oil, and wine

As Ephraims connection to wine is also more than one verse.
And he said unto them, What have I done now in comparison of you? Is not the gleaning of the grapes of Ephraim better than the vintage of Abiezer? Judges 8:2

Nehemiah 4:13 relates to the rebuilding of the temple, there's no obvious association with glory there.

Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13

I will show you another group of three glories in support of what Im saying about spear glory, sword glory, and bow glory.

The glory judgement of cattle, goats, and sheep:
And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17

Cattle glory is as spear glory:
Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm 68:30

Brass, Silver and Gold are another three glories:
And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass. Exodus 35:22


Wine glory is gold glory. That is why the wine is in the golden cup.

Glory1 - Glory2 - Glory3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard

Does that further confirm the group of three glories?

Consider these two groups: Can you see the bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood?

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

That is why babylon is drunk on wine, and also drunk on blood. Blood and wine are the same glory.


To further explain the spear, sword, and bow glories. I will show you the sword glory.

Sword glory is as oil glory:
The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Psalm 55:21

And sword glory is also as bone glory:
As with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where is thy God? Psalm 42:10


As oil is as sword, and sword is as bones, therefore the oil is as bones:
As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. psalm 109:18


So the Bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood, and the oil is the bones.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Spear - Sword - Bow

Oil glory is as Bone glory, and Sword glory.

Does this help with further explaining the bread, oil, and wine group of glories?

IMO to make the case that glory is related to your groups of three you should be able to explain your rationale for including them but rejecting other groups of three.

I don't reject other groups of threes. I didn't want to overwhelm you and wanted to know if you can understand the concept before trying to go into more detail, and into other groups of three, and into how they are all woven together into the same three glories.

I know many different groups of three glories, and how they are all woven together so therefore is only three glories. I can show you more.
But I don't know all groups. If you can catch onto what Im talking about then maybe you can teach me some of the glories that I am unaware of.

So does what Im saying making any sense? Did this further explaining help clarify what i was saying about the glory of wine? and the glories of the three weapons?

 

[Ebionite]

Yeah there is that one. There are also other direct references to the group that you might have missed. Like here:

And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22

Also this:
For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, [which] they prepared for Baal.
Hosea 2:8

Corn is dagan, usually translated as grain, but bread is lechem. The difference between them is mainly leaven.

And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.
Mark 8:15

Which brings us back to Paul, who is your primary source for the association with glory.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Also this:
For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, [which] they prepared for Baal.
Hosea 2:8

Corn is dagan, usually translated as grain, but bread is lechem. The difference between them is mainly leaven.

And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.
Mark 8:15

Which brings us back to Paul, who is your primary source for the association with glory.

Corn is a terrible translation. Corn was completely unknown to the writers of teh Bible, including Hosea. It is a grain native to the Americas, and only became known elsewhere in the world after 1492.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Which brings us back to Paul, who is your primary source for the association with glory.

Its not a primary source. It is being used as a focus point. I can change to a different focus point and still keep saying exactly the same things.

So the moon, stars, and sun are said to be three different glories.

Three different glories, three different judgements.


And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. Ezekiel 39:21

I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments. Psalm 119:7

Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious. Psalm 66:2

Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Psalm 148:3


Three different positions of judgement.

Does that help with clarifying what I am saying, or is it still not clear to you?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Corn is a terrible translation. Corn was completely unknown to the writers of teh Bible, including Hosea. It is a grain native to the Americas, and only became known elsewhere in the world after 1492.

But it is only your understanding of the word that makes it terrible.

You are associating the word with Native American corn. Maybe thats all you know of the word. But corn is a word that means any grain.

Learn about the word:

"Word History: Originally, the English word corn meant any rounded grain or seed whatsoever. In particular, it was used to refer to the kind of grain most often grown in a certain region. Thus in England, a cornfield is usually a field of wheat".

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: corn

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: corn

ahdictionary.com

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But it is only your understanding of the word that makes it terrible.

You are associating the word with Native American corn. Maybe thats all you know of the word. But corn is a word that means any grain.

Learn about the word:

"Word History: Originally, the English word corn meant any rounded grain or seed whatsoever. In particular, it was used to refer to the kind of grain most often grown in a certain region. Thus in England, a cornfield is usually a field of wheat".

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: corn

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: corn

ahdictionary.com

We don't live 1000 years ago. We live TODAY, 2024. The word corn TODAY means a specific grain also known as maize. Thus, any translation that uses the word corn needs to be replaced.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

We don't live 1000 years ago. We live TODAY, 2024. The word corn TODAY means a specific grain also known as maize. Thus, any translation that uses the word corn needs to be replaced.

Do you think all books that mention the word corn should be changed into your understanding of corn?

 

[Ebionite]

Its not a primary source. It is being used as a focus point. I can change to a different focus point and still keep saying exactly the same things.

I don't think you know what "exactly" means. Dagan and lechem are not exactly the same word and do not have exactly the same meaning.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you think all books that mention the word corn should be changed into your understanding of corn?

It depends. It's like asking if you should retranslate Chaucer. The whole point of a BIBLE translation is so that you can read it in your own language. You wouldn't want to have a Bible in a version of English that is no longer spoken because it would cause you confusion.

 

[YoursTrue]

Corn is a terrible translation. Corn was completely unknown to the writers of teh Bible, including Hosea. It is a grain native to the Americas, and only became known elsewhere in the world after 1492.

Do you know if Hosea really existed as written?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I don't think you know what "exactly" means. Dagan and lechem are not exactly the same word and do not have exactly the same meaning.

I know grain and bread are not the same thing. Bread is from grain.

The field, the corn, and the bread are different things. But the words are connected together. Thats the point.

This verse shows the corn is for the bread, and the vineyards is for the wine:
"Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards". Isaiah 36:17

And this should help show the connections of what is being said:

Glory1 - Glory2 - Glory3
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


I mean saying exactly the same things as when putting other groups of three seemingly unrelated glories into meaning the same three original glories while trying to explain. Because in the speech they have been woven into each other according to their positions, any group of glories can be considered as an original starting point.

Have to try to start somewhere.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It depends. It's like asking if you should retranslate Chaucer. The whole point of a BIBLE translation is so that you can read it in your own language. You wouldn't want to have a Bible in a version of English that is no longer spoken because it would cause you confusion.

We talked about misunderstanding earlier.

Misunderstanding can also be a problem. We think that we understand something because we interpret everything we hear into a way that we can understand. We can think we understand, and be wrong. Because if we attach new information into the wrong places of our existing information our understanding is wrong, we have missed it, and misunderstood.

The new information was placed into your existing information to form a conclusion. So that was your understanding of the word. A misunderstanding of corn.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you know if Hosea really existed as written?

I don't know a lot about Hosea. My understanding is that Hosea and Amos are the two oldest complete books of the Bible (there are passages in other books that are older), and were written during the dual monarchy period. It appears that it was indeed written by a man named Hosea. That's the sum total of my knowledge, which I learned from the Jewish scholar who does the Useful Charts series of videos called "Who wrote the Bible", specifically episode 2, the Prophets. It is entirely possible that others scholars may say something different.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We talked about misunderstanding earlier.



The new information was placed into your existing information to form a conclusion. So that was your understanding of the word. A misunderstanding of corn.

Excuse me? I have no misunderstand of the word corn. I'm perfectly aware of which grain it currently refers to.