Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[Trailblazer]

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

@PureX said that one CAN change their mind, but they won't because they don't want to deny their current understanding of 'what is'. #523

I disagree. One CAN change their mind, and they sometimes do, if they get new information that causes them to change their mind. However, if they don't change their mind, it is because they truly believe that what they believe is true according to their current understanding. It is not that they won’t change their mind, as if they are stubbornly refusing to change their mind, it is that they have no reason to change their mind.

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

Why should atheists accept that God exists when they see no evidence for God’s existence?

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.

 

[an anarchist]

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

Well I can.

Would you believe me if I said I've seen god face to face? I doubt it. But it's true, at least in my reality. Yet I choose to look away. I no longer chase him. I no longer give him my faith or effort or good words.

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God.

I have seen god, and am a practicing atheist. Some call me stubborn.

I am the master and author of my beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well I can.

Would you believe me if I said I've seen god face to face? I doubt it. But it's true, at least in my reality. Yet I choose to look away. I no longer chase him. I no longer give him my faith or effort or good words.

Whether I believe you or not depends upon what you mean by "face to face." I do not believe that God has a face, since God is not a human. Also, as the Bible says, nobody can "see God" and live, and I believe that. However, if you mean that God has revealed Himself to you in some way that was undeniable, I am not going to tell you that did not happen since that was your personal experience, and I know at least two former atheists who became believers when God revealed Himself to them.

Are you saying that you believe that God exists since you have seen God? That would be the evidence I was talking about in my OP.

Once you have evidence tat proves to you that God exists you can no longer choose to disbelieve in God. However, that does not mean that actions follow the beliefs. One can believe in God but not give God their faith or effort or good words.

I have seen god, and am a practicing atheist. Some call me stubborn.

I am the master and author of my beliefs.

One can believe that God exists yet act like an atheist. I have been in that position many times. It really causes a lot of cognitive dissonance.

 

[an anarchist]

Are you saying that you believe that God exists since you have seen God? That would be the evidence I was talking about in my OP.

I dont believe God exists, even if I seen him.

He wasn't a dude with a face, I'll tell you that. I was merged.

And the many instances after I've had that surely proved that God was real for me personally.

Do you believe your senses to be absolute? I don't.

If others were to have my spiritual experiences, it may cause unshakable faith as it did for me for many years. But I thought my way out of it.

Seeing and being god means nothing to truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you believe your senses to be absolute? I don't.

If others were to have my spiritual experiences, it may cause unshakable faith as it did for me for many years. But I thought my way out of it.

Seeing and being god means nothing to truth.

I agree. I do not believe that we can rely upon our senses or spiritual experiences. I think we need to rely upon knowledge, what is in our minds.

 

[an anarchist]

I agree. I do not believe that we can rely upon our senses or spiritual experiences. I think we need to rely upon knowledge, what is in our minds.

Is the knowledge that is in our mind any more reliable than our senses? I see no difference. The knowledge in the mind is acquired by the faulty senses.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is the knowledge that is in our mind any more reliable than our senses? I see no difference. The knowledge in the mind is acquired by the faulty senses.

Since the mind is closely associated with the soul, I think that the knowledge in our mind is more reliable the physical senses.
However, that depends upon how that knowledge is acquired.

83: THE FOUR METHODS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE

 

[Quintessence]

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

In some ways, I find the better question to be why wouldn't you? It's not as if paradigm shifting is that difficult. Taking off your own set of filters to put on a different filter (or put another way, swapping your map of the territory for a different one for a while) is tremendously useful in many, many situations.

 

[Trailblazer]

In some ways, I find the better question to be why wouldn't you? It's not as if paradigm shifting is that difficult. Taking off your own set of filters to put on a different filter (or put another way, swapping your map of the territory for a different one for a while) is tremendously useful in many, many situations.

That is a point well taken and we can swap for a while to learn what others believe, and maybe even take on some of their beliefs..

Butt what I really was asking was:

Why should anyone be forced to deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone be forced to accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

In other words, why aren't people entitled to hold their beliefs? Why should they accept beliefs they do not hold?

 

[an anarchist]

Since the mind is closely associated with the soul, I think that the knowledge in our mind is more reliable the physical senses.
However, that depends upon how that knowledge is acquired.

83: THE FOUR METHODS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE

I think this strays a bit from the OP but it's your thread

Reading back I realize I brought the epistemological framing to your OP.

Well let's continue then.

Well I am sure we've gone through epistemology before (or I've seen you go through it with others, one of the two).

But I doubt we will be able to come to an agreement.

Nothing perceived by our senses are reliable ways at attaining truth. I believe axioms exist, don't get me wrong.

But you bring up the soul. And I am unsure if such a thing exists.

I'm at one bar of cell service so I'm not gonna wait several minutes to load up Bahai scripture, sorry. It's a hassle enough trying to use RF out where I live.

Anyways, is it your scripture that says a soul exists? I assume so. And you say your scripture is from God therefore truth or something along those lines, feel free to correct me it's been a couple months since I've been active here and I've read through many many threads so the details in my head might get mixed up a little.

I give your scripture no credence, so like if you want to continue this conversation without Bahai scripture I would be totally down.

 

[Unfettered]

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

Absolutely.

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.

Very well said.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you bring up the soul. And I am unsure if such a thing exists.

Anyways, is it your scripture that says a soul exists? I assume so. And you say your scripture is from God therefore truth or something along those lines, feel free to correct me it's been a couple months since I've been active here and I've read through many many threads so the details in my head might get mixed up a little.

I give your scripture no credence, so like if you want to continue this conversation without Bahai scripture I would be totally down.

Yes, the Baha'i scripture says that a soul exists, but whether a soul exists or not is not really related to the topic in the OP. We kind of got off track.

 

[an anarchist]

We kind of got off track.

It happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

@PureX said that one CAN change their mind, but they won't because they don't want to deny their current understanding of 'what is'. #523

I disagree. One CAN change their mind, and they sometimes do, if they get new information that causes them to change their mind. However, if they don't change their mind, it is because they truly believe that what they believe is true according to their current understanding. It is not that they won’t change their mind, as if they are stubbornly refusing to change their mind, it is that they have no reason to change their mind.

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

Why should atheists accept that God exists when they see no evidence for God’s existence?

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.

Although it is a rare thing, people do sometimes switch to a different religion.

This usually occurs because they are not happy with something in the faith in which they were raised. Maybe the don't like the rules. Maybe they were abused by someone. Maybe they were in need and no one responded. It could be anything; the point is that they are unhappy.

A new group means an opportunity to leave that painful environment. They may consciously tell themselves that they are converting because they have been convinced of the truth, but that is not the real reason.


For a person to actually convinced by reason to convert to a different faith would be rare among the rare. It does happen. But it is not your typical convert. This sort of person has an outstanding ability to put their own orthodoxy on a shelf momentarily while they listen objectively to the viewpoint of those they disagree with. I have met a couple of people like this. In both cases, they changed religions more than once. Their lives seem to be an ongoing spiritual journey.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.

A little correction, you think that you see evidence for God, where an overwhelming majority of people see none - this is in reference to an uneducated 19th Century Iranian, Bahaollah, being an actual manifestation of Allah.

Although it is a rare thing, people do sometimes switch to a different religion.

I did not encounter that problem. I rejected nearly all what a main-line Hindu believes, creation, birth and death, existence of Gods and Goddesses, existence of soul, reincarnation, heaven and hell, etc. and became a strong atheist. But then, I found that Hinduism has no problem with atheism as long as I fulfill my duties ('dharma').

 

[Trailblazer]

A little correction, you think that you see evidence for God, where an overwhelming majority of people see none - this is in reference to an uneducated 19th Century Iranian, Bahaollah, being an actual manifestation of Allah.

That is not what I said. I said I see evidence for God. I did not say what the evidence is.
The overwhelming majority of people also see evidence for God, even though it is not the same evidence that I see.

 

[joelr]

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

@PureX said that one CAN change their mind, but they won't because they don't want to deny their current understanding of 'what is'. #523

I disagree. One CAN change their mind, and they sometimes do, if they get new information that causes them to change their mind. However, if they don't change their mind, it is because they truly believe that what they believe is true according to their current understanding. It is not that they won’t change their mind, as if they are stubbornly refusing to change their mind, it is that they have no reason to change their mind.

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

Why should atheists accept that God exists when they see no evidence for God’s existence?

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.

Harvard did a psychology study and found that people don't change beliefs because of facts unless they are open to the possibility that their current beliefs my be untrue. When they are ready to face the truth to know what is actually true, only then will facts be accepted.

There is no evidence for God that holds up without confirmation bias, none I have seen so far. All religious people say they have seen evidence, but it's because they accept a claim as true. If the evidence was actually enough to believe then everyone would believe.
The evidence that is presented can either:

-also be used for any other religion or deity
- be explained by an alternate and more likely explanation (like a vague prophecy or claims that a god is speaking to someone but they get no actual information only a god could provide).

If someone told a prophet that everything we see is made of atoms, with a nucleus and a negative particle orbiting the outside, and they don't behave like solid objects until measured........bam, amazing evidence.
Or 10 numbers at the trillionth decimal point of pi. Or light speed is finite yet the same for all observers. That's it. One of those or many many other things a god could say.

Not "a war will break out, with blah blah, evil king, oppression, blah........" Yeah there are 2 serious wars happening right now.

Unless a god has a sadistic need to mess with us, there is no evidence that these claims are real. I'm only seeing belief based on faith because the evidence is not supporting a god and I highly doubt any believer would accept their own evidence if another religion had exactly the same.

I would love to have good evidence of a spirit realm.

 

[osgart]

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

@PureX said that one CAN change their mind, but they won't because they don't want to deny their current understanding of 'what is'. #523

I disagree. One CAN change their mind, and they sometimes do, if they get new information that causes them to change their mind. However, if they don't change their mind, it is because they truly believe that what they believe is true according to their current understanding. It is not that they won’t change their mind, as if they are stubbornly refusing to change their mind, it is that they have no reason to change their mind.

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

Why should atheists accept that God exists when they see no evidence for God’s existence?

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.

We are all subjected, and influenced by the myriad of information available to us all. However it gets to a point where it's very difficult to discern reliable information from rubbish if one doesn't have trusted sources they can go to.

Some people are looking for dispassionate, objective facts that can actually be of use in their daily lives. They are looking to be challenged in their points of view. When people seek actual truth some have learned that reality may not conform to things they've been emotionally invested in. For people like this they can amend their beliefs more readily, but may have surer paths they can travel and change their beliefs less frequently.

When someone is emotionally invested in their beliefs they become more resistant over time to ever departing from their investment. Especially when their investment is highly motivating, and fills their criteria for convincement.

First hand experience and information is more powerful and persuasive than second hand information and news.

Many are not sure about the sources they are exposed to on a daily basis. With the barrage of constant information it can be taxing to wade through all the things coming at you from day to day.

With creativity, imagination, and bias getting close to factual information is not always easy.

For me I'm always looking at pros, cons, opposition, and neutral sources.

All these things factor into whether a person changes their beliefs or not. I'm sure there's more to it.

Education, culture, background, experience, ability, opportunity are all factors.

Smartphones are powerful, and persuasive tools. One should be careful to live their lives moreso than getting caught up in internet usage. These tools need the proper filtering so that one can avoid being overwhelmed with useless garbage input. That's a good job for AI.

Persuasion, manipulation, economic survival and advantage, all play into what a person believes as well.



Ultimately the quality of input will determine whether beliefs change, or stay the same.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Can we change our mind about what we believe?

One can change one's beliefs based on new information, but no, one can't just change their beliefs on a whim. That's called deluding oneself.

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Because the introduction of objective evidence that conflicts with one's beliefs renders those beliefs inaccurate.

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

This is just a silly question. If one doesn't believe a "belief" to be true, then it's not their belief.

Why should atheists accept that God exists when they see no evidence for God’s existence?

Who suggested they should? That question is nearly as silly as the last one.

The only thing I've ever ask of atheists is to accept that others may have experiential evidence of God's existence rather than to challenge them on that experience. If it doesn't impact you, whether it's an experience, a belief, or a lack of a belief, why should it matter to you other than to satiate your curiosity what another has experienced or does or doesn't believe?

 

[Quintessence]

That is a point well taken and we can swap for a while to learn what others believe, and maybe even take on some of their beliefs..

Butt what I really was asking was:

Why should anyone be forced to deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone be forced to accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

In other words, why aren't people entitled to hold their beliefs? Why should they accept beliefs they do not hold?

I wouldn't have interpreted it that way, I suppose, because it is simply impossible at time in the turning of the ages to force what happens inside another human's head (killing them or inflicting brain damage or drugging them into a stupor notwithstanding). Literal mind control does not exist in our present. That is the only way to force these things.

Until that way of forcing is actually possible for what goes on inside another human's head, all humans are "entitled" (not really the word I would use) to think whatever the blazes they want about anything. Humans are "entitled" to whatever it is they are capable of doing and others are not capable of controlling through force. There is no mind control.