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Can Science explain everything?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by cvipertooth, Nov 22, 2004.

  1. cvipertooth

    cvipertooth Member

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    Is it possible that, although science has proven and explained many many things about the word and the universe, there are some things that can only be explained through the supernatural realm?

    And in that day shall ye say, Praise the Lord, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. Isaiah 12:4

    As the bible says, I should tell the people what God has done in my life. Miraculous things have happened and there is no way science or logic or philosophy or religion itself can explain, but I believe that these things are the essence of my faith.

    To start off, I would like to tell a story about a missionary who works for the operation christmans child hand-out centers is Uganda. Our church minister was telling me and my family a story about how they were handing out christmas boxes to the starving children. He said that there were a little over 1,000,000 boxes and the same number of children. The boxes were randomly handed out, onlt after making sure they fit the right sex and age bracket. In the 8-10 year old boy section, they came down to 1 box, and 2 children. The children were identical twin brothers. They didnt know what to do. Suddenly, one of the boys grabbed the box out of the missionary's hand and ripped it open. There were exactly two of everything. Now, what are the odds of of 2 boys and one box being selected at random out of 1 million of each set? The odds would be 1 out of 1E18, or for a staggeringly large number, 1 out of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. Granted, this is an approximate number. It could be less, but most likely more. There is not a scientist on this earth that will deny that these odds are virtually impossible, but nevertheless, it happened. My question to those who do not belive in an intelligent desigen is, why did or would this happen?

    I would now like to tell you a story about my mother. in June, she went to the doctor with broncitis (excuse spelling). This is usually no big deal, she's a school teacher, she is exposed to sicknesses every day. The doctor thought it best to x-ray her chest to make sure that it was not pneumonia. When they x-rayed her chest, they saw what they then called a "shadow" on her clavical (again, excuse spelling). The Lab report suggested that she have a CT scan. That report came back as possible Blastic Bone Lesion. Recommended bone scan. That report came back suggesting going to and Oncologist. The Lesion presents itself on all scans as Milignant bone Cancer. As far as we knew, my mom had a life expectancy of a few months. When she went to the Oncologist, the doctor had been in touch with the radiologist, who was the First person to diagnose the condition that my mother really had. My mom was diagnosed with Condensing Osteitis, a bone deformity that occurs only in women in their forties, and only in the Medial Clavical. My Mom is 42. Her Oncologist "just happened" to talk to the Radiologist who had first "stumbled upon" this condition in med school. What are the chances of those conditions being just perfect for my mom's diagnosis? otherwise, she would have had a portion of her clavical removed and a lifetime of worry of possible malignancy.

    My Brother was born with a condition in which if he consumed a chemical primarily found in dairy products (but not limited to) he would go into anafalactic (...spelling) shock and die. Needless to say, this was a very scary time in our life. When he turned 7, he went for his annual check-up, and they found that the allergy was gone. The scientific explanation for this is that every seven years, your auto-immune system re-vamps itself. This does so in a random order. People usually gain allergies instead of lose them. What are the chances that his immune system changed in the exact sequence neccessary for a life-threatening illness to be gone?

    I can assure you that you can take my word. I am not lying about these accounts. If these things can happen with little-to-no scientific explanation, couldn't there be room for God? The goodness of these life-altering situations would only lend itself to a benevolent God, who cares about every person, while he cares for mankind as a whole.

    One thing I forgot to mention, each situation was shrouded in prayer. Those shoe boxes are prayed over time and time again, they are blessed, and they are put together in a way that is perfect for their receivers, but random to the giver. When my mom recieved her first report, most of my community fell to their knees. My brother was prayed for time and time again. I belive that prayer works.

    God is not something you can prove scientifically. He wants to be belived in by faith, and by what you see in the World around you. People tried to reach God once, and that was the Tower of Babel. If we could reach God, there would be no purpose for him.

    If we were to look through the science and the logic, the proof and evidence, philosophy and rational thinking, and found nothing, what meaningless existence do we have on this planet? But if we were to discover the free gift that God has allowed us to recieve and embrace it, We do not have to worry what our purpose here is. We have a higher purpose, through the will of God.
     
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  2. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it is quite less. If there were 1,000,000 boxes, the odds of the twins getting one with two of everything would be 1 out of 1,000,000 at most. It would be even less than that if there were several boxes with doubled items.

    There is no scientist in the world who would formally claim this to be 'impossible'. It's unlikely, perhaps, but anything with any sort of odds for or against it is within the realm of possibility.

    Also, are you telling me that you base your belief in god on a coincidence? Coincidences happen every day--the odds that you live in the city you do, verses all others, are much greater than anything a couple of boxes and children could muster. The odds of your children receiving the gene combinations that they have (or will have :) ) are off the charts. Are you starting to get the picture? Just because a certain coincidence is attention-getting, doesn't make it any more special than any other coincidence. The importance of one coincidence over aother is rated by societal rules at best, certainly not god.

    I don't mean to demean your mother's condition--I know that serious illness within a family can be very scary, but again we have chances, chances, chances!

    Less than or equal to the chances that his immune system would have changed to the exact sequence necessary for him to be allergic to strawberries.

    I absolutely think you are telling the truth, but I assure you that these kinds of things happen every day, and that they all have perfectly scientific explanations. Of course there is room for god here, but the bottom line is that these coincidences you've described to not logically provide any evidence for him/her/it/they.

    If god was benevolent, and cared about every person as well as mankind as a whole, I would hope that he has a little better of a plan for showing that love than a couple of sporadic and vague coincidences.

    That's only if by reaching god, we would gain all of his powers, which is an assumption not even based on biblical accounts.

    Many people 'reached' Don Carleone, for example, but boy, did they still need him!

    What is that higher purpose? To get to heaven? Then what?

    When you logically analyze things, you find that a belief in god does not bring any true 'purpose'.
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    At this point, you can be pretty sure of the quality of the verbage that will follow.

    I don't believe your fairy-tale. Do you have any evidence?

    I would rather have evidence.

    Which one?
     
  4. Mr Spinkles

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    cvipertooth-- This is a debate forum, and as such I hope you realize that your beliefs will be challenged here. I agree with Ceridwen, but I also am glad that you took the time to share what you have shared with us. I would caution, though, that by sharing it in a debate forum you leave them open to question, discussion, and debate.
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Poor cvipertooth!

    I know you spent a lot of time on your post and what rotten luck.... two of the smartest athiests I know jump all over it! ;)

    I would like to offer this... maybe it will help ya:

    (The interaction of scientists and theologians) will lead to an ever-deeper investigation of the truths of science and the truths of faith, truths which ultimately converge in that one Truth which believers acknowledge in its fullness in the face of Jesus Christ.

    The "wonder" which sparked the earliest philosophical reflection on nature and which gave rise to science itself, has in no way been diminished by new discoveries; indeed, it constantly increases and often inspires awe at the distance which separates our knowledge of creation from the fullness of its mystery and grandeur.

    Despite the uncertainties and the labor which every attempt to interpret reality entails -- not only in the sciences, but also in philosophy and theology -- the paths of discovery are always paths towards truth. And every seeker after truth, whether aware of it or not, is following a path which ultimately leads to God, who is Truth itself.

    John Paul II Nov 9th, 2004

    :)
     
  6. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Virtually -

    Almost but not quite; nearly: “Virtually everyone gets a headache now and then”

    Chance can account for all of those things. Now, lets check something out.

    What's the chance that Hitler would be elected out of several million people?
     
  7. cvipertooth

    cvipertooth Member

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    I was speaking of the odds of the two twins, undoubtedly seperated at the beginning of the handing out, would be the last two without boxes. My calculations may be wrong, but the odds are much greater than 1 out of 1,000,000. That same box could have been given to any other 8-10 year old boy in Uganda and that boy would have just got two of everything. And one twin would go without a box.

    I did say "virtually", meaning it is coincidentally possible, yes. But coincidence does not happen benevolently to people time and time again. The world has lended itself towards sayings such as "when it rains, it pours", or beliveing that good things happen to people to a certain point, then something really bad has to happen to them. Prayer gives us a hope of otherwise.

    The odds of me living in the city I do are based on my parent's decision of where to live, not on a random straw pull. The same thing with genes, genes are based on laws of heredity, and can be predicted by looking at my parent's chromosomes. whether the gene is polygenic or just simple dominance is based on the certain gene, which is the same for all people. "Coincidence" does not apply to either of these. Coincidences themselves are not explainable, but it seems that we would have a very bland life if the coincidences did not have purposes.


    Again, the benevolence of these coincidences implies that we all have a purpose higher than our every-day life. If Coincidence did not have purpose, then I would tend to belive that chance would not be in the reciever's favor. Even coincidences where something bad happens to someone, may possibly have a greater purpose even on this earth. For instance, If someone in your family dies, then you meet someone who has lost the same family member, you can help them cope with that loss. There may be reasons you go through such hardships, but humans cannot see those purposes. This implies something supernatural must have control over our everyday lives, or else we would all be lost in the dark.


    actually, like i said in my original post, the chances are more likely to leans towards the gaining of an allergy, no the losing of one, especially a life-threatening one.


    I have never claimed that these coincidences prove the existence of an intelligent creator, only implying that there are instances in this world that we as humans cannot LOGICALLY comprehend. If there is something that we cannot explain, there has to be some force driving that. That force would have to be intelligent, and benevolent to even care about our well-being.

    What greater way to show love for humanity than to die for it. Our living is an act of love itself, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.


    Far from true. God wants us to belive in him through faith, not through verifying his existence. If we proved God, there would be no use for him anymore. In a sense we would have robbed him of his power, omnipotence.

    I would like to correct myself. We can reach God, through prayer. In sense, the same way people asked for favors of the Godfather. As far as "proving" God's existence or becoming "smarter" in some way, we cannot.

    You can live forever in heaven, a perfect place. That is much better than the alternative. As far as "purpose", our purpose has more to do with our earthly life than our eternal. When we die, our purpose will either be fulfilled or not. Many may go their wholoe life without even recognizing what their purpose is, but that doesnt mean that they couldnt be used in some way to effect someone.

    And beliveing in no afterlife does bring you 'purpose'? You become wealthy or join the military, be a good humanitarian, or whatever it is that makes you believe that 'purposeful', to what end? You just die? Does that not make the life you led, or all of our lives, for that matter, vain?
     
  8. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Not at all.
    The life you lead IS the purpose!!

    Not the hypothetical afterlife that you may but probably will not lead.

    If you truly believe this life is worthless,why are you here..why do you live?
     
  9. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    With all the countless events occuring throughout history on this planet, what are the odds that something "out of the ordinary" will occur? Pretty good, I'm willing to bet.

    Also, as suggested earlier, there are various TERRIBLE things that can happen but for which the chances of them occuring are low. Yet terrible things DO occur despite the odds, just as "miraculous" things occur. If the manifestation of a positive, "miraculous" event for which there are low odds indicates that God MUST be at work in the world, then you must also consider that because terrible things for which there are low odds also occur, God must also be the force behind all the terrible things that occur in the world. Or, if you prefer, Satan can be the one who is making these things happen, but if Satan is supposedly weaker than God (who is supposedly all-powerful, supreme, yaddy yaddy yadda), then it logically follows that ANYTHING that is weaker than God can make an event occur for which there are low odds...

    :bonk:
     
  10. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    If there were 1,000,000 boxes, then each child had a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of recieving the box that they did. Rather, they had a 1 in 999,999 chance, since we learn that they were one box short.

    I apologize--my mistake.

    Not usually, you are correct. Coincidence is random, however, which means that it is perfectly possible for it to act 'benevolently' to people time and time again if that is how the dice is rolled.

    In this instance, coincidence can be related to probability. There are many more bad things in this world which have the potential of happening, than good things. Thus, the probability of something bad happening is much greater than something good happening. Therefore, if a coincidence were to take place, it is much more likely that it will have a negative affect than a positive one. This does not, however, mean that it is impossible (or even particularly unlikely) for good things to happen often.

    Think of it this way: When your ancestors first came to America, and wondered together about which area of the country their family would be located in in however many generations, what are the odds that they would speculate correctly?

    Single phenotypes can be predicted very accurately. For instance, if your mother was heterozygous for brown hair (Bb) and your father was homozygous for blonde hair (bb), one could discern that you would have 1/2 chance of being brunette (Bb) and 1/2 chance of being blonde (bb). This system works for every individual gene. The coincidence, however, comes in when you add the results of all of those genes together to become an entire person. For instance, what are the odds that my overall phenotype would include green eyes, brown hair, and height, verses blue eyes, blonde hair, and lack of height? What about blonde hair, brown eyes, and medium height? Given the millions of genes which make up the body, the ultimate probability of a single combination has been calculated to be about 1 in one trillion. Those are some pretty steep odds, if you ask me.

    I don't mean to sound harsh, but your lack of preference does not warrant truth.

    Maybe this is true, but my point is that none of the ones you listed fit this criteria.

    Come on, cvipertooth, you're smarter than this. This is the oldest argument in the book. Just because we don't understand something, does not mean that "god automatically did it." Back in the day, no one knew what generated lightening. Many were comfortable with the old, 'god is angry' explanation--luckily, there were others who weren't. Now we have knowledge of positively and negatively charged electrons, etc. We no longer rely on god to explain lightening to us.

    If he died, you mean. I mean no disrespect, but you're going to have a hard time pushing biblical stories at me as a way to prove a point.

    In a way, I agree that living is 'an act of love.' I love life. However, I don't see how creating a bunch of little people, allowing disease and poverty to infiltrate, and then sitting back to watch the pot boil over is a sign of love, but maybe that's just me.

    Why not? What difference does it make?

    Well, maybe you wouldn't need him, but I would prefer that the sun keep rising and setting as usual, and would therefore keep him around.

    Also, god's omnipotence wouldn't 'vanish' simply because people can be certain he exists. That doesn't make any sense.

    So you hope.

    Is that the purpose then? To affect others? Well, I thought that only religious people had purpose. I'm glad to see that I have purpose too.

    By the definition of 'vain', I suppose it does. Being active during your life certainly beats out sitting around and staring at the wall all the time, though. Why do I care about my life and my environment if I'm not in for some big reward at the end? Well, why not? What do I have to lose by getting out there, making a difference, and living it up? I assure you, I have much more to lose by being inactive.
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Still no evidence.
     
  12. cvipertooth

    cvipertooth Member

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    I'm sorry, but there is no evidence to give you. Even if I was to prove something by showing you documentation, you could always say I fabricated it instead of believing. As far as my mom and brother, the only proof I can provide for you is by displaying their medical records on the internet. Regardless of the validity of my claims, things do happen like those that I have listed, I was only making this thread personal to myself. It doesnt really matter whether you believe my claims or not.
     
  13. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    It would appear that science has a history of taking supernatural "facts" out of that realm and making those "truths" natural. Why would it not continue to do so?

    Bob
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    So, to promote your dogma you tell us stories for which you have no evidence? How sad. Had you only lived a few thousand years ago, you might have made a living writing scripture. :D
     
  15. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    We do have one..oh.wait.
    Nevermind.
     
  16. cvipertooth

    cvipertooth Member

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    What a typical response from someone who is obviously incapable of reading an entire post. What i said in my post is that even if there was proof to give you you could choose whether or not to believe it.

    Once again, you must not have any kind of of input to give to this thread therefore you find it neccessary to degrade my religion and myself in order to compensate for your lack of response. Believe it or not, some people come to this site to learn from others and give their opinions, not try to break down other people in their own beliefs.
     
  17. Mr Spinkles

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    cvipertooth-- As I said earlier, this is a debate forum, and your beliefs will be challenged. If you just want to share something without exposing it to debate, you should post it in one of the non-debate forums.
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And what you did in your post was present a story, for which your have no evidence, as probative. Do you not find that at least mildly dishonest?
     
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