The precise moment in time would be when God sent forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30
God supplied the needed ' power and strength ' ( energy ) timed to create the material realm of existence. - Isaiah 40:26; Jeremiah 10:12; 27:5; 32:17
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Can science disprove the existence of God?
- Thread starter Crypto2015
- Start date
The precise moment in time would be when God sent forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30
God supplied the needed ' power and strength ' ( energy ) timed to create the material realm of existence. - Isaiah 40:26; Jeremiah 10:12; 27:5; 32:17
Do you agree with Flew's words in post # 615, and if Not why not ?
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
God doesn't exist in any universe.
Not a real answer to my question, and kinda missing the point.
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
I don't see how your question has anything to do with what I originally stated.
The belief in God is a philosophical one, not a scientific one, and I gave my reasons for that.
If God actually existed, why would the question of his existence be outside the realm of science?
Anything with observable effects is potentially within the scope of science. If God has no observable effects - i.e. if God's existence is indistinguishable from God's existence - how could belief in God ever be justified?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I don't think science can prove the existence of any imagined being.
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
If God actually existed, why would the question of his existence be outside the realm of science?
You are missing the point that something can exist that is outside this observable, testable universe. If you limit your perspective to this universe, everything in it, then you're not going to get anywhere as far as God is concerned.
This is why God can only be talked about through philosophy and logical argument, not through science, not through empiricism. God is a philosophical concept, not a scientific subject. Not even close.
Anything with observable effects is potentially within the scope of science. If God has no observable effects - i.e. if God's existence is indistinguishable from God's existence - how could belief in God ever be justified?
God doesn't affect this universe. In His perspective, the universe was created in a certain way following a determined set of laws decreed by Him. And we creatures who have consciousness, are simply observing these laws being carried out through the straight flow of time. The only difference is that our souls, or spiritual bodies, can alter the destiny of the universe as a whole, because firstly, our spiritual bodies are not from this world, and second, our spiritual bodies have free will.
So everything else around us is obeying the laws which cannot be broken, and so are our physical bodies. But our spiritual bodies, our souls, are not. Our true selves come from outside the universe, which is why we are able to do whatever we please. Our entire lives are made up by continuous actions determined by our selves, and every single action is recorded and preserved, and it leaves its print on the universe.
Science can confirm this through time. Anything that goes one way, can just as easily go the other way. So everything that you and I do, that action has already been recorded.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
So you do not believe God is omnipresent?
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
Define omnipresent. It's just a word that we understand to mean "existing everywhere". God however is not a physical being, He is beyond our universe. So when people use the word "omnipresent" to describe Him, all it means is that God's authority and power extends throughout the whole universe, that everything is under and beneath Him, and nothing can surpass Him.
You can't take it in a literal sense.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Yes....omnipresent means existing everywhere, It is not a description of God but an attribute....the authority of God is omnipresent. If you say God's presence does not include the whole universe, seen and unseen...but his presence remains on the other side of (beyond) the universe...then this means God is not omnipresent...in your opinion.
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
God created the entire universe, determined its laws, and basically determined the form and shape of everything that exists and the properties of everything that moves and works with other things.
God is infinite and eternal, the universe if finite and temporary. So logically speaking, the universe is not even a small dot compared to God, and not only that, the universe did not even last more than a second in God's perspective.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
If God is infinite...then God is obviously omnipresent...but you seem to be saying the universe is not a part of God's infinite presence?
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
No, what I said is that God is not in the universe.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Then in English....this means God is not omnipresent? Nor is God infinite if the space occupied by the universe is devoid of the presence of God...
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
No, you don't seem to understand...like, at all.
If I were to say God is in the universe, I'd be wrong, because He's not. God's power controls the entire universe, yes, but saying that He is IN the universe, is wrong.
It's wrong because you're thinking God is some physical entity that is living inside this universe. And that's clearly not the case.
As far as Islam is concerned (my religion), there is no verse from the Qur'an that states God is physically inside the universe, but there are many verses of the Qur'an which gives us the idea in an allegorical manner that God's power and authority is everywhere.
[2:115] To ALLAH belongs the East and the West; so whithersover you turn, there will be the face of ALLAH. Surely, ALLAH is Bountiful, All-Knowing.
[2:186] And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me
[2:255] His throne extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them wearies Him not; and He is the High, the Great.
[4:58] And surely, excellent is that with which ALLAH admonishes you. ALLAH is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.
[6:103] The eyes see Him not, but He sees the eyes (of man) ; He is the All-subtle, the All-aware.
[10:61] And there is not hidden from thy Lord even an atom's weight in the earth or in heaven
[24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth
[34:50] Say, “If I err, I alone would bear its consequences. But if I am on the right path, it is because my Lord sends me the revelation. Indeed, He hears all, and He is really close at hand.”
[50:16] We [God] are nearer to him than his life-vein
[57:3] HE is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and HE has full knowledge of all things.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
I do not imagine God is a physical entity...i have no idea how you could conclude that...God is omnipresent regardless all space, all time and all dimensions. I agree with the gist of the Koranic sayings...similar sayings also exist in bible...they all indicate that there is no where where God is not. But you are saying God is not present in the space occupied by the physical universe..
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
But you are saying God is not present in the space occupied by the physical universe..
This statement clearly contradicts with everything else you wrote. This statement of yours is giving the impression that God is physical and is residing inside the universe.
I already made it clear that God's power, authority, and reign, is what resides in the universe, but God Himself? No.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
You are mistaken...that God is omnipresent means that God is in all space...therefore logically God is present in the space occupied by the universe. It is a matter of logic...if God is not present in the space occupied by the universe...God is not omnipresent. Of course God is not confined to the physical dimensions of time and space...but to say God is not present in this space occupied by the astronomical universe perceived by man is illogical and unreasonable. God is transcendentally present in the space within the atoms, between the stars, galaxies, etc..infinitely...
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
If that is your definition of omnipresent, then God is not omnipresent. God doesn't live in space, He doesn't reside next to atoms and between stars and galaxies.
God is not a substance.
But if you take omnipresent to mean that God's power and authority is everywhere, in the universe and beyond it, then yes, He is omnipresent.