Can it not exist?

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, and so what.

Hey, if you're cool with being irrational, have at it, I guess.

I'm not cool with being irrational so I'm going to do my best to be rational. Of course, I care about believing as many true things as possible and not believing false things.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hey, if you're cool with being irrational, have at it, I guess.

I'm not cool with being irrational so I'm going to do my best to be rational. Of course, I care about believing as many true things as possible and not believing false things.

Well here is one version of rational: based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings.
So cool, best and care are not rational.

 

[SkepticThinker]

My question was:
Can you think of anything else in your life where you suspend reason and logic and instead just believe? I can't. It seems it only applies to non-demonstrable religious beliefs.

Believe that your wife loves you and won't run off with the pool boy?

I can ascertain to some extent, how my wife feels about me from her actions. Does she treat me lovingly? Does she have a history of cheating? That's all information I can gather to make a decision about whether or not I feel she'll run away with the pool boy. Am I 100% certain she won't? Nope, but then I don't think we can be 100% certain about much of anything beyond the fact that I exist. I don't suspend reason and logic when it comes to my belief about whether or not my wife will cheat on me. If my wife starts acting suspiciously or if I see her with the pool boy, I'll apply the same reason and logic to determine that she's probably cheating on me.

Believe that a car will stop for you at a stop sign?

I don't consider this faith either. From my past experience, I know that drivers usually stop at stop signs because they are supposed to, but I also know that sometimes they don't because they're in a hurry or they didn't see the sign or whatever. So if I see a car coming toward a stop sign, I don't jump out in the road until it has stopped at the sign, because I know it's possible that they will not stop. Reason and logic are applicable here as well.

The world would be a very dangerous place if we could not believe in anyone.

We "believe in" other people based on our experience with other individuals.
Do I believe my brother-in-law will tell me a lie? I do believe that, because 9 times out of 10 in the past, he has told me a lie.
Do I believe my sister will tell me a lie? No, because she doesn't tend to lie to me.
Do people generally stop at stop signs like they are supposed to? Generally, but not always.
Reason and logic are applicable here as well.

We live our lives with beliefs that we can't prove. Is it too much to ask to believe just one more thing (God)?

I don't live my life with beliefs I can't prove.

And yes, it is too much to ask to "believe just one more thing" when I haven't ever seen any good evidence that I should be believing in that thing in the first place.

Many of our beliefs we've acquired by a lifetime of observation. That car stopped, my wife baked me a birthday cake, my cat purred at me instead of scratching me. We can then believe that the same behavior would persist.

Yep.

What if we somehow figured out (or observed) some action of God. Do we trust that God will protect us?

Sorry, I don't understand your question.
It would be amazing if anybody could ever demonstrate "some action of God." No luck so far though.
I don't see the connection between observing an "action of God" and trust that "God will protect us" unless the action was a protective one in the first place.

Perhaps belief in God is more tenuous than belief in terrestrial things. Yet, to some, belief is mandatory.

I don't consider these things to be faith-based beliefs. Of course, my definition of "faith" is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If it is invisible to your eyes or your other senses, why is it impossible that it does exist without you being able to detect it?

If something is said to exist but be undetectable, then the statement can be ignored as irrelevant until some detectable phenomenon is found that suggests the existence of something as yet undetected, like dark matter. The idea wasn't worth considering until certain problems with the stability of galaxies was uncovered. Now, here was a detectable phenomenon not previous explicable. Suppose I hypothesize an even darker matter that doesn't even have a gravitational effect, nor any other, and that it can't be detected even in principle by any sense aided or unaided. Now we're in Sagan's garage dragon territory, the not even right stuff.

For something to exist, you must see it?

No, but to say it exists, you must be able to detect some effect it causes, or else it's existence is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, and saying it exists is meaningless. It predicts nothing. It explains nothing.

Can it be that other people can see and understand something you can't see or understand?

Yes, but a clever person can discern if that is the case. Consider the red-green colorblind person, who after being pranked a few times, begins to wonder if this isn't another prank, like Santa Claus. So, he gets a person who claims to see color buy him 20 red and 20 green socks, and number them and make a list of color and number. He then asks a number of independent people to tell him what color each sock is, and compares the results. The consensus of opinion tells him it is not a prank. If it were, he would get a different answer from everybody he asks.

Try this test with gods to see if you get consensus. It will answer the question of whether they are seeing something others can see that is invisible to you.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It's much deeper than just a belief, it is a deep intuitive acknowledgement of something much greater than our self.
And no spiritual practice is not based on human logic, you have to put it aside.

If it isn't based on logic or reason then by definition it's unreasonable to accept such a claim as true. You are welcome to believe unreasonable things if you like, but you may as well be claiming that you commune with magical pixies as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Spirit of Light]

If it isn't based on logic or reason then by definition it's unreasonable to accept such a claim as true. You are welcome to believe unreasonable things if you like, but you may as well be claiming that you commune with magical pixies as far as I'm concerned.

Who's logic? Spiritual way of life to me is much more logic than the mundane "blind" way of life. You may disagree and that is totally normal too.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If it isn't based on logic or reason then by definition it's unreasonable to accept such a claim as true. You are welcome to believe unreasonable things if you like, but you may as well be claiming that you commune with magical pixies as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, very subjective. That is the fun part about these debates. What matters, is not with evidence or reason. It is a first person qualitative evaluation.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Who's logic? Spiritual way of life to me is much more logic than the mundane "blind" way of life. You may disagree and that is totally normal too.

Here is it as short as it can be done.
That reason and logic matters, is not reason or logic. That is how you understand those humans. They also have subjective beliefs, which are without reason, logic and evidence.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It's much deeper than just a belief, it is a deep intuitive acknowledgement of something much greater than our self.
And no spiritual practice is not based on human logic, you have to put it aside.

You sound like a Q-anon supporter... they have absolutely zero evidence for their ridiculous claims... they just feel that they have a deep intuitive 'knowledge' that they're true. People can convince themselves of absolutely ANYTHING if they simply abandon logic and reasonable thinking.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You sound like a Q-anon supporter... they have absolutely zero evidence for their ridiculous claims... they just feel that they have a deep intuitive 'knowledge' that they're true. People can convince themselves of absolutely ANYTHING if they simply abandon logic and reasonable thinking.

Yeah, that is apart of how the world works.

Now give objective evidence for the fact, that it is ridiculous claims. Or your claim is ridiculous.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Who's logic? Spiritual way of life to me is much more logic than the mundane "blind" way of life. You may disagree and that is totally normal too.

Sorry, but your 'logic' appears to be that if you want it to be true hard enough then you can pretend that it IS true. That's how the Q-anon movement got started and thrives... that why there are people convinced that the Earth is flat. Abandoning genuine logic and reason for an 'if I pretend hard enough then it WILL be true' attitude is what's going to lead to the fall of human civilization.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Sorry, but your 'logic' appears to be that if you want it to be true hard enough then you can pretend that it IS true. That's how the Q-anon movement got started and thrives... that why there are people convinced that the Earth is flat. Abandoning genuine logic and reason for an 'if I pretend hard enough then it WILL be true' attitude is what's going to lead to the fall of human civilization.

Yeah, now do this for which there is no reason, logic and evidence.
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

I will grant you all the actually objective facts and then we can start on what is left.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You sound like a Q-anon supporter... they have absolutely zero evidence for their ridiculous claims... they just feel that they have a deep intuitive 'knowledge' that they're true. People can convince themselves of absolutely ANYTHING if they simply abandon logic and reasonable thinking.

That is just your opinion.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Yeah, that is apart of how the world works.

Now give objective evidence for the fact, that it is ridiculous claims. Or your claim is ridiculous.

If you haven't yet seen enough evidence that the claims of the Q-anon movement are ridiculous then sadly it's too late for you. You've already abandoned reason and common sense for what whatever feels good to you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you haven't yet seen enough evidence that the claims of the Q-anon movement are ridiculous then sadly it's too late for you. You've already abandoned reason and common sense for what whatever feels good to you.

That was an appeal to emotion and not an actual claim with evidence. You are using your emotions.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sorry, but your 'logic' appears to be that if you want it to be true hard enough then you can pretend that it IS true. That's how the Q-anon movement got started and thrives... that why there are people convinced that the Earth is flat. Abandoning genuine logic and reason for an 'if I pretend hard enough then it WILL be true' attitude is what's going to lead to the fall of human civilization.

So how about your own "belief" in logic and reason, who says your view is the only true and that spiritual belief is just silly because YOU don't believe it.

Sorry mate but your logic is so illogical a cow can reason better than you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So how about your own "belief" in logic and reason, who says your view is the only true and that spiritual belief is just silly because YOU don't believe it.

Sorry mate but your logic is so illogical a cow can reason better than you.

In practice as long as you do your life so you don't become a part of the Darwin Awards and remain a pacifist, you can do fine. You cope as for what works for you and that can't be reduced down to objective reality, no matter how much some people try yo do it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Yeah, now do this for which there is no reason, logic and evidence.
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

I will grant you all the actually objective facts and then we can start on what is left.

LOL You just LOVE to provide that link that points out that science has limitations, don't you? Sadly you seem to think that means you can abandon the scientific method any time it's convenient for you to do so. Science cannot determine something purely subjective like what is the best flavor of ice cream, since it is nothing more than an opinion... but science can determine the objective reality that ice cream exists. Sound like you are claiming that god is nothing more than an opinion and doesn't exist in objective reality.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

LOL You just LOVE to provide that link that points out that science has limitations, don't you? Sadly you seem to think that means you can abandon the scientific method any time it's convenient for you to do so. Science cannot determine something purely subjective like what is the best flavor of ice cream, since it is nothing more than an opinion... but science can determine the objective reality that ice cream exists. Sound like you are claiming that god is nothing more than an opinion and doesn't exist in objective reality.

No, I know that science works for that which it works. But ridiculous is not science. That is a first person qualitative evaluation. The limits of science also apply to you.
So no matter how much there is an objective reality, it doesn't tell you how to actually cope as an individual human. That is the end game. You went from objective facts to subjective evaluation and properly didn't even notice it. That is okay, that is how some humans do it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

So how about your own "belief" in logic and reason, who says your view is the only true and that spiritual belief is just silly because YOU don't believe it.

Sorry mate but your logic is so illogical a cow can reason better than you.

Except that 'my view' of logic and reason has given us the scientific method... a method that has BY FAR been the most reliable method human beings have ever found for determining how the universe functions. If the scientific method hadn't figured out how electrons work, the two of us wouldn't be communicating over the Internet. Since cows have yet to figure out how to build computers I'm pretty confident that people using the scientific method can reason far better than any cow.

'My' form of logic led us to realize that disease is caused by viruses and bacteria. "Your' form of logic led people to believe that disease was caused by evil spirits or curses... as well as preposterous claims that the Covid vaccine is a vast conspiracy to put microchips into people.