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Can God change his mind? in otherwords do things like christianity and Islam make sense?

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The BS being the supernatural parts.
Having ethical codes, rituals, life change traditions, comforting teachings, that is the sort of thing they have in common. Which Prophet is God's True Spokesman is what separates them, fundamentally.
Tom
I was getting at something grander than that as I believe the ultimate truth is that we are all One and our end is to find Liberation/Self-Realization/Nirvana/etc.. Religions as we traditionally know them are starting with people on the ground floor of a spiritual mountain to climb. At this level they deal in the things you talk about above, but the key to all is brotherly love at that stage. All worthwhile religions encourage brotherly love and removal of selfishness that harms others. Those things move you up the mountain. At the top of the mountain there are no differences of religion.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I was getting at something grander than that as I believe the ultimate truth is that we are all One and our end is to find Liberation/Self-Realization/Nirvana/etc.. Religions as we traditionally know them are starting with people on the ground floor of a spiritual mountain to climb. At this level they deal in the things you talk about above, but the key to all is brotherly love at that stage. All worthwhile religions encourage brotherly love and removal of selfishness that harms others. Those things move you up the mountain. At the top of the mountain there are no differences of religion.
You're statement "At the top of the mountain there are no differences of religion." is simply false. Christianity claims exclusivity. And you're so-called self-effort up the mountain is totally contrary to the teachings of the orthodox Christian faith. The Bible says that salvation is found nowhere else (than in Jesus Christ). Pluralism or synchretism or inclusivism are misleading belief systems.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You're statement "At the top of the mountain there are no differences of religion." is simply false. Christianity claims exclusivity. And you're so-called self-effort up the mountain is totally contrary to the teachings of the orthodox Christian faith. The Bible says that salvation is found nowhere else (than in Jesus Christ). Pluralism or synchretism or inclusivism are misleading belief systems.
I was expressing MY opinion of religions. Yes, I am a syncretist and believe exclusivity is a wrong belief and not what Jesus intended.
 

Mercurio

Member
I was getting at something grander than that as I believe the ultimate truth is that we are all One and our end is to find Liberation/Self-Realization/Nirvana/etc.. Religions as we traditionally know them are starting with people on the ground floor of a spiritual mountain to climb. At this level they deal in the things you talk about above, but the key to all is brotherly love at that stage. All worthwhile religions encourage brotherly love and removal of selfishness that harms others. Those things move you up the mountain. At the top of the mountain there are no differences of religion.
I sometimes say that if you could fully understand one religion, you would understand the rest. The person who thinks his religion is right and the only valid one suggests to me he doesn't understand his own yet.

The misunderstandings within various religions can be ironed out, I think, if we follow the principle of "brotherly love." Any justification of lack of love (whether indifference or hate) by appealing to "holy books" or "holy men" as "proof" that we are right is a failure to remain on that path upwards. Jesus said we should live by that Law of Love, and I think we should know that before we read he said it and really should know it after reading it or being told.
I was expressing MY opinion of religions. Yes, I am a syncretist and believe exclusivity is a wrong belief and not what Jesus intended.
He said he had sheep in other folds -- so why should we believe the band of followers in Judea were the only sheep? And we have him saying that on Judgment Day, some people will be surprised. Some will think they did things for him and he'll say no. Others will wonder when they ever did anything for him, and he says yes they did.

Anyone who follows the Law of Love will not fail to attain. Any departure from the Law of Love is a danger which mire us down in continuing error and more spiritual debt.
 

Mercurio

Member
You're statement "At the top of the mountain there are no differences of religion." is simply false. Christianity claims exclusivity. And you're so-called self-effort up the mountain is totally contrary to the teachings of the orthodox Christian faith. The Bible says that salvation is found nowhere else (than in Jesus Christ). Pluralism or synchretism or inclusivism are misleading belief systems.
It would be helpful if I knew what passage or passages in the Bible you mean. You talk about the "teachings of the orthodox Christian faith," but I don't know what you're basing that claim on. I know of no passage that says what you say the Bible says.
 

Mercurio

Member
The God of Judaism is more or less the inspiration or supposed to be the same god the Christians and muslims worship. See here is the thing that gets me about that. Why would God randomly start new religions?
Why do you use the word "randomly"? Are you saying it looks random to you?

If you read the Bible, you can find out see why Moses wrote the Torah. The Jews do not believe their Written Torah was or is some sort of final truth. The Torah itself says it isn't. The Written Torah and the whole system of priests and sacrifices were given to Israel because they rebelled and did not want to hear the Voice of God.

Why is Christianity so different to Judaism?
I don't see that it is that different.

Why would god allow 3 new religions to take place rather than just give the revelation all at once in one religion?
Your question might be like asking why calculus isn't taught in kindergarten. If we believe God is benevolent, then we should believe that He will provide what we need. What good would it do to try to teach people if they aren't ready to be taught.

And more. Some truths are concealed from men lest they see them, know them, and then reject them. This sin is willful and knowing sin. The person who does this is seriously digging the hole he's in deeper. It is better to allow him to continue in ignorance so he cannot commit this sin. This is why the Bible says God at times blinds the spiritual eyes of men. God in His Mercy is protecting them from committing this sin. They may be committing sins of ignorance; but those are easily forgiven later. When the person is ready to see and accept the truth about something, his past mistakes made in ignorance begin to be corrected. SIns of ignorance aren't that serious. Following this principle, we can see that when mankind is ready to receive something, Heaven will provide.

Please understand too that parts of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, don't make much sense apart from the cultural context. And culture changes. The average person was not expected to be educated completely on the past culture. Thus the Jews were to depend on the rulings of the Sanhedrin about how to interpret the Old Testament; and Jesus affirmed that too, telling people to do what the Sanhedrin said.

For example, take the rule forbidding men to dress as women and women as men. Why was that a rule? In some quarters today, people forgetting the cultural context, say things like women shouldn't wear slacks and so on. But Jesus said all the laws of Moses had to interpreted using the Law of Love. To understand that prohibition, you need to understand how things worked. Men could dress up like women to get into a house to do things with women, or women could dress up as men to meet men somewhere without drawing notice. It has to do with being deceptive and trying to do things that could get you or others in trouble. Using clothes to deceive others is what is wrong.

We should not expect that people with vastly different cultures would understand the Old Testament. I would expect God would provide some other way of teaching other cultures, depending on their circumstances.

Indeed, contrary to what many Christians seem to think, the Old Testament does not say it is a rule book for the whole world. It was given to Israel, binding on them. It says so, but that doesn't stop some Christians from trying to obey all the rules in the Old Testament. They don't understand their own books when they read them. For example, My Bible says Israel were to keep the Sabbath because their ancestors came out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

So why would I, as a Gentile whose ancestors were not in Egypt, think I should observe the Sabbath? The Law of Moses was given to Israel to encourage good deeds -- not as a form of ultimate truth.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.


So we see the Law of Moses was not given to Gentiles and not binding on them. That was the conclusion the Apostles reached too when a controversy arose in the early Church.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
It would be helpful if I knew what passage or passages in the Bible you mean. You talk about the "teachings of the orthodox Christian faith," but I don't know what you're basing that claim on. I know of no passage that says what you say the Bible says.

God speaking through the Old Testament prophet Isaiah was clear e.g. "Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other." Isa. 45:21

In the New Testament God speaking through the Apostles stated:
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil." John 3:17-18

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

"You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." Acts 20:20

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall shortof the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:9

"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. Acts 17:30-31

”For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1Timothy 2:5

"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1John 5:11-12

Jesus, Himself, stated:

"But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. [24] I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.” John 8:23-24

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

”And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’” Matthew 28:18-20

"Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:35-40

Finally:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” 21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

Jesus Asserts His Deity
22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” John 10:1-30
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
The God of Judaism is more or less the inspiration or supposed to be the same god the Christians and muslims worship. See here is the thing that gets me about that. Why would God randomly start new religions?

Why is Christianity so different to Judaism?

Why would god allow 3 new religions to take place rather than just give the revelation all at once in one religion?

He allowed the 3 in question for the same reason he allowed every other religion, and even the ability to not have a religion at all. The answer is Freewill. With freewill comes the ability to do whatever you wish without being coerced. The idea is that most people will make their own way to God of their own freewill. What better way is there to prove your love? If you love something let it go, if the love is mutual it will come back to you.
 

Mercurio

Member
God speaking through the Old Testament prophet Isaiah was clear e.g. "Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other." Isa. 45:21
Let start by apologizing that I lack the time right now to respond to all the passages you cite. Let me start with this one.

First, you have not given a passage which supports your previous statement. On the contrary, it contradicts it. You wrote earlier, "The Bible says that salvation is found nowhere else (than in Jesus Christ)." Now you cite a passage which says mankind is saved by turning to the One True God -- to Yahweh, Yah or Jehovah. Verse 5: '' I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me." How does that square with what you said about Jesus?

Could the people of Israel be saved then? Could anyone be saved before Jesus came? That chapter also says this:

Isaiah 45:9 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.


Were people doomed to seek God in vain then because Jesus hadn't arrived on the earth yet? That passage says no. Then there is the passage you quoted, saying all the ends of the earth might be saved if they sought God. Sorry, but Jesus isn't mentioned in that chapter. There is a "messiah" mentioned -- but it's Cyrus!

I think Isaiah was probably referring to something Moses wrote about seeking the LORD if they fell into error and lost their way.

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

I hope you don't believe people born before Jesus came and people born after he came but who never heard of him cannot ever be saved.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The God of Judaism is more or less the inspiration or supposed to be the same god the Christians and muslims worship. See here is the thing that gets me about that. Why would God randomly start new religions?

Why is Christianity so different to Judaism?

Why would god allow 3 new religions to take place rather than just give the revelation all at once in one religion?
As far as God's dealings with the nation of Israel, these Laws God gave were to lead the Jews to the Messiah, IMO. I believe Jesus kept the Law, fulfilling it's purpose, and opening the way to forgiveness and everlasting life through his ransom sacrifice. Galatians 3:23-25 explains; "However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being handed over into custody, looking to the faith that was about to be revealed. So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian."
Thus true religion includes both the Hebrew and Christian writings included in the Bible today. I believe that is there is no other revelation given by God after the Bible was completed by the end of the first century.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
This might be helpful, if you have the time and wish to actually interact with the Scriptural testimony, and not to divert to other verses you have time to display.

"Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." Ex.3:13-15

I am sure you remember this section knowing it is the Creator God who led Israel out of Egypt to Mt. Sinai to give them the Ten Commandments.

To the scribes and the Pharisees Jesus tells them:

"And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” 30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus proclaims His Deity and as being the Creator - the great I AM of the O.T. prior to His incarnation.

Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: “Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands. 12 “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host.
13 “I have aroused him in righteousness And I will make all his ways smooth; He will build My city and will let My exiles go free, Without any payment or reward,” says the Lord of hosts. 14 Thus says the Lord, “The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.’” 15 Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior! 16 They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them; The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation. 17 Israel has been saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated To all eternity. 18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the Lord, and there is none else. 19 “I have not spoken in secret, In some dark land; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, ‘Seek Me in a waste place’; I, the Lord, speak righteousness, Declaring things that are upright. 20 “Gather yourselves and come; Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; They have no knowledge, Who carry about their wooden idol And pray to a god who cannot save. 21 “Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23 “I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. 25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory.” Isa.45:11-25

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil.2:6-11

“Who has performed and accomplished it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’” Isa. 41:4

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Isa.48:12-13

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And the events that are going to take place. 8 ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.’” Isa.44:6-8

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil.2:6-11

“For I proclaim the name of the Lord; Ascribe greatness to our God! 4 “The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He." Deut.32:3-4

"The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold...For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God, Ps.18:2,31

"My soul waits in silence for God only; From Him is my salvation. 2 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken...
My soul, wait in silence for God only, For my hope is from Him. 6 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be shaken. 7 On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God. 8 Trust in Him at all times, O people; Pour out your heart before Him;
God is a refuge for us. Selah. Ps.62:2, 5-8

"For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness." 1Cor.10:4-5

"And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”
8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed." 1Peter 2:4-8


Regarding you question about salvation before and after Christ. It is the same - belief in the promised Messiah:

"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah.” 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written,

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” Romans 9:27-33

Yes, that's alot. The evidence that the Bible declares the exclusivity of faith in Christ alone cannot be denied.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." john 14:6

"He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:11-12
 

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
This might be helpful, if you have the time and wish to actually interact with the Scriptural testimony, and not to divert to other verses you have time to display.

"Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." Ex.3:13-15

I am sure you remember this section knowing it is the Creator God who led Israel out of Egypt to Mt. Sinai to give them the Ten Commandments.

To the scribes and the Pharisees Jesus tells them:

"And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” 30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus proclaims His Deity and as being the Creator - the great I AM of the O.T. prior to His incarnation.

Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: “Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands. 12 “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host.
13 “I have aroused him in righteousness And I will make all his ways smooth; He will build My city and will let My exiles go free, Without any payment or reward,” says the Lord of hosts. 14 Thus says the Lord, “The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.’” 15 Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior! 16 They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them; The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation. 17 Israel has been saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated To all eternity. 18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the Lord, and there is none else. 19 “I have not spoken in secret, In some dark land; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, ‘Seek Me in a waste place’; I, the Lord, speak righteousness, Declaring things that are upright. 20 “Gather yourselves and come; Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; They have no knowledge, Who carry about their wooden idol And pray to a god who cannot save. 21 “Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23 “I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. 25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory.” Isa.45:11-25

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil.2:6-11

“Who has performed and accomplished it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’” Isa. 41:4

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Isa.48:12-13

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And the events that are going to take place. 8 ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.’” Isa.44:6-8

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil.2:6-11

“For I proclaim the name of the Lord; Ascribe greatness to our God! 4 “The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He." Deut.32:3-4

"The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold...For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God, Ps.18:2,31

"My soul waits in silence for God only; From Him is my salvation. 2 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken...
My soul, wait in silence for God only, For my hope is from Him. 6 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be shaken. 7 On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God. 8 Trust in Him at all times, O people; Pour out your heart before Him;
God is a refuge for us. Selah. Ps.62:2, 5-8

"For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness." 1Cor.10:4-5

"And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”
8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed." 1Peter 2:4-8


Regarding you question about salvation before and after Christ. It is the same - belief in the promised Messiah:

"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah.” 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written,

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” Romans 9:27-33

Yes, that's alot. The evidence that the Bible declares the exclusivity of faith in Christ alone cannot be denied.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." john 14:6

"He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:11-12
I don't really think any of this makes sense outside of Christianity. the second you realize everything proclaiming god was jesus is only written by Christians should instantly put the idea in doubt in your mind. These are as far as I can tell totally different gods.
 

Mercurio

Member
I don't really think any of this makes sense outside of Christianity. the second you realize everything proclaiming god was jesus is only written by Christians should instantly put the idea in doubt in your mind. These are as far as I can tell totally different gods.
I have a little time, so let me add this.

I happen to believe that while there are many gods, they are all part of the One True God.

As in this passage from Micah:

Micah 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.


For Christians, our "god" or "lord" is Jesus; but there is only one God.

I Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I have a little time, so let me add this.

I happen to believe that while there are many gods, they are all part of the One True God.

As in this passage from Micah:

Micah 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.


For Christians, our "god" or "lord" is Jesus; but there is only one God.

I Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You would think that the 1st and 2nd commandments would be enough:
"Do not have other god's besides me. Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to worship them.." Exodus 20:3-5 HCSB
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I don't really think any of this makes sense outside of Christianity. the second you realize everything proclaiming god was jesus is only written by Christians should instantly put the idea in doubt in your mind. These are as far as I can tell totally different gods.

That is the point. Christianity claims to be the one true (exclusive) religion. All others are false. There can be only one.
 
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