Can every sin be forgiven?

[Ormiston]

Yes. Obviously not every human can forgive every sin. But every sin is forgivable by some human somewhere, and certainly by God.

I'm sure there is, but I have not had the misfortune of encountering it yet.

I agree with this. I also believe that every act of atrocity has and will be committed somewhere. I also believe (my own thoughts only) that forgiveness is and should be limited. What good comes from "forgiving Hitler"? The only useful act involving Hitler is the removal of Hitler from the world of the living and recording his wrongs to display for the future. As for whether Hitler ever repented, I doubt it. Even when the war was nearly over and his world was falling apart, he directed all available monies away from his military and directly towards the murder of as many concentration camp victims as possible. Then, by committing suicide, he avoided the scorn of the entire world. Pretty selfish in my book (as if being selfish matters at that point).

 

[Stormygale]

The Bible tells us in so many words, that every sin can be forgiven except that of blasphemy. Now, you have to ask yourself, is this for the sinner, who knows nothing of how God actually works, or is this a backslider, who, after sliding away, is calling all that he knew of the Works to be a lie to satisfy his own reason for leaving.

Hmm. A sinner who knows not of what he is actually Blaspheming against cannot blaspheme with his heart, that is with whole belief, on something he is blind to in the first place. Therefore, blaspheming is dedicated for those who have known God, and have chosen to 'fall away'. They know the way to live right, they have had God to make them aware, and this is only an exit for them. In short, they curse God knowingly to his face, with their heart. The common sinner with little lack in Holiness is capable of committing this act against God. It is not for the sinner.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

As much as I try to forgive others, I am unable to forgive people like Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini for their crimes against humanity. I just can't seem to forgive genocide whether the persecutor's may be sorry or not. And if someone near and dear to me is hurt by someone, I would have a hard time with that too.

Yeah, these are hard to swallow. Because we ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Otherwise, we would be in perfect harmony with nature, and would not question things such as morality.

Did you know Hitler was Catholic? Do you know that he honestly believed that what he was doing was seeking vengence for the death of Christ? Do you know that he had 10's of thousands of people supporting these beliefs and carrying out his plan? If Hitler had been born in another time, and another place, he may have used his talents of persuasion and charisma for good instead of evil.

It's easier to forgive if you can step out of your shoes and see through the eyes and heart of the one we seek to forgive.

 

[Peace]

Also, I know there's a Jewish saying "He who saves one person, saves the world entire." I think it comes from the Talmud, but was wondering if you know anything more specific. thanks, -lilith

lilithu, we have that quote in the Quran.
Allah says: "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.(5.32)

Peace

 

[Melody]

Did you know Hitler was Catholic? Do you know that he honestly believed that what he was doing was seeking vengence for the death of Christ? Do you know that he had 10's of thousands of people supporting these beliefs and carrying out his plan? If Hitler had been born in another time, and another place, he may have used his talents of persuasion and charisma for good instead of evil.

Egad. What Hitler and his followers did had *nothing* to do with his religious beliefs and , with a bit of digging, you'd probably find that those pushing this tripe have an anti-catholic agenda.

 

[James the Persian]

Egad. What Hitler and his followers did had *nothing* to do with his religious beliefs and you, with a bit of digging, you'd probably find that those pushing this tripe have an anti-catholic agenda.

Quite right and frubals. Hitler was as much a Catholic as I am an Anglican (i.e. he was baptised a Catholic). His anti-Semitism was not some misguided vengeance for Christ's death but pure racism based on his own personal experiences in Vienna and the usual spirit of anti-Semitism that dominated much of Europe. Not to mention the fact that it was a big part of the thinking of many German Social Darwinists that he admired.

Hitler wasn't even Christian, for goodness sake. He resurrected the old Teutonic religion for use by the SS, he was obsessed with the occult, believed that Arians were a master race from Atlantis etc. He was a pagan through and through - and I don't mean the kind of friendly, environmentalist neo-pagans you get now (though he was vegetarian). He was a true, old style, the gods favour my nation so we are superior, pre-Christian type pagan.

Trying to cast aspersions on the religion he was baptised into because of his actions is as ridiculous as if I claimed anti-Semitism was caused by being a vegetarian dog-lover. Some people, though, stoop at nothing to villify Christianity, don't they?

James

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Egad. What Hitler and his followers did had *nothing* to do with his religious beliefs and you, with a bit of digging, you'd probably find that those pushing this tripe have an anti-catholic agenda.

Can every sin be forgiven? That is the topic of the thread. I am using the most extreme example I can think of.
Hitler served as an altar boy in the Catholic Church. Growing up in this environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of discrimination and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.

Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.

Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.
Photos of Hitler with Priests

 

[jewscout]

jewscout, can you provide a scriptural reference for that? Thanks. Also, I know there's a Jewish saying "He who saves one person, saves the world entire." I think it comes from the Talmud, but was wondering if you know anything more specific. thanks, -lilith

hmmm i think both come from the Talmud, but don't quote me on that...i'll have to look it up or ask my rabbi when i see him today...

 

[Melody]

Can every sin be forgiven? That is the topic of the thread. I am using the most extreme example I can think of.

Oh...fiction...ok. Let's go even more extreme then. If aliens come to earth and wipe out every living being on the planet, can it be forgiven?

Since every living being has been wiped out, there's nobody to do the forgiving. Except God and He can pretty much do what he wants. I won't even speculate as to whether He will because I don't pretend to comprehend completely His big plan.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Oh...fiction...ok. Let's go even more extreme then. If aliens come to earth and wipe out every living being on the planet, can it be forgiven?

Since every living being has been wiped out, there's nobody to do the forgiving. Except God and He can pretty much do what he wants. I won't even speculate as to whether He will because I don't pretend to comprehend completely His big plan.

Fiction? Are you suggesting that Hitler was a fictional character? There are some who say the holocaust never happened, is that a fictional story, too?

It seems that if you cannot believe that Hitler was a child of God, born with the same promise of hope that is within each of us, it is you who cannot see God's big plan.

 

[Melody]

Fiction? Are you suggesting that Hitler was a fictional character? There are some who say the holocaust never happened, is that a fictional story, too?

It seems that if you cannot believe that Hitler was a child of God, born with the same promise of hope that is within each of us, it is you who cannot see God's big plan.

ES,

You are deliberately misunderstanding. No Hitler was not a fictional character. What is fictional is your statement that Hitler's war against the jews had anything to do with his religious beliefs and need to get revenge for the death of Christ. Hitler was anti-semitic because he was looking for a scapegoat for his own inadequacies and a rallying point for his political purposes.

Can we please move on from this anti-catholic garbage? Geez....I'm not catholic and it offends me!

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

ES,

You are deliberately misunderstanding. No Hitler was not a fictional character. What is fictional is your statement that Hitler's war against the jews had anything to do with his religious beliefs and need to get revenge for the death of Christ. Hitler was anti-semitic because he was looking for a scapegoat for his own inadequacies and a rallying point for his political purposes.

Can we please move on from this anti-catholic garbage? Geez....I'm not catholic and it offends me!

How is this anti-catholic? I am not speaking against the church, just one of it's members.

It seems that you are being very non-Christian by judging others. By declaring who is and is not children of God. Aren't we all children of God.

We can switch off the topic of Hitler, let's talk about the KKK who constantly quote the bible to validify their actions. They believe in God, and Jesus. Are their sins forgiveable?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

OK back to Hitler:
Hitler not only was brought up a Roman Catholic Christian, but he expressed his Christian views into adulthood, including his period as Chancellor of the German Third Reich. One only need read Mein Kampf to see the extent of his Biblical beliefs. Mein Kampf was well known by the Christian German populace and became a best-seller second only the Bible. Furthermore, Hitler’s Christian feelings were even more intensely expressed in his speeches and proclamations throughout his power reign.

Although some might counter that Hitler’s admission to Christianity, by itself, does not make one a Christian, how else can an individual convey to another his religion except from their own confession? One of the tenants of Christian belief, indeed the definition of a Christian, comes from the Pauline epistiles in regards to faith in Jesus:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. -Galatians 2:16 Â To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -Romans 3:26-28 Â

Paul, by declaring faith in Jesus over law, effectively separated Christianity from Judaism. It was these Pauline declarations that first defined Christianity. Belief in Jesus serves as the only requirement for membership into the Christian community. Christianity does not require adhering to Old Testament laws or membership to any Church or abstaining from evil deeds. One need only have faith in Jesus for its justification, period.

So if Hitler believed in Jesus, and asked for forgiveness of his sins, would he be forgiven?

 

[Ormiston]

How is this anti-catholic? I am not speaking against the church, just one of it's members.

It seems that you are being very non-Christian by judging others. By declaring who is and is not children of God. Aren't we all children of God.

We can switch off the topic of Hitler, let's talk about the KKK who constantly quote the bible to validify their actions. They believe in God, and Jesus. Are their sins forgiveable?

I'm unclear about this forgiveness issue. What if I said "I just forgave Hitler and the whole KKK!". Does this mean anything? What's the value in absolute forgiveness? Now, if someone killed a person dear to me, and at their trial looked me in the eyes and begged for my forgiveness, who is the forgiveness for? Do I tell the murderer that I do indeed forgive them for their sake? Can anyone truly be sure that they have forgiven? I don't honestly understand this concept.

 

[lilithu]

I'm unclear about this forgiveness issue. What if I said "I just forgave Hitler and the whole KKK!". Does this mean anything? What's the value in absolute forgiveness? Now, if someone killed a person dear to me, and at their trial looked me in the eyes and begged for my forgiveness, who is the forgiveness for? Do I tell the murderer that I do indeed forgive them for their sake? Can anyone truly be sure that they have forgiven? I don't honestly understand this concept.

You're right, Ormiston. Forgiveness only makes sense on the truly personal level - we forgive those who have wronged us directly (if we choose to). It means nothing to say "I forgive Hitler" unless one is a concentration camp survivor. That's just an abstraction. Hitler gets brought up in these conversations more as a question of whether or not God would forgive him, and obviously that question has no relevance to a non-theist.

The value of forgiveness, imo, is as much for the sake of the person forgiving as the person being forgiven. It takes energy to maintain hate/anger. One has to "feed" it with thoughts of the wrong that was done to keep it burning. It redirects one's attention away from other things in one's life; prevents one from enjoying life as much as one otherwise would. If someone kills a person dear to you, and you hate the person for it, your hate hurts you more than it hurts the person that you hate. (Unless your hate motivates you to hurt the person in return. But then you have allowed your own morality and sense of self to be degraded.) Forgiveness for the forgiver means letting go of the hate so that one can regain control of one's life. It doesn't mean that one forgets the wrong that was done - the loss. Forgiveness for the forgivee means receiving permission to let go of the guilt so that one can begin to construct a more positive, meaningful life. It doesn't mean that the person forgiven does not have to live with the consequences.

So the two questions that one is faced with when someone asks for forgiveness, imo, are: 1) do I wish to carry the burden of this hatred/anger? and 2) do I believe that there is still something in this person that if given the chance could be made into something positive?

 

[Melody]

It seems that you are being very non-Christian by judging others. By declaring who is and is not children of God. Aren't we all children of God.

Argghhh! Please go back and read my post! I did not say anything about whether or not Hitler was a child of God nor whether or not he should be forgiven. I was merely clarifying that his motives had nothing to do with his professed religion. :banghead3

 

[Melody]

Moving on.....

I agree with Lilithu and Ormiston. I don't need to forgive Hitler because he's done nothing to me that needs to be forgiven. *Would* I have if I'd been in his concentration camps and survived when the rest of my family had not? I've already answered that in my very first post in this thread.

 

[cardero]

Not just by a God ( if there is one ), but by man?
Is there any sin you couldn't forgive?

If it was done to someone else, yes.
If it was done to me, yes,it would be even easier.

 

[njcl]

The Bible tells us in so many words, that every sin can be forgiven except that of blasphemy. Now, you have to ask yourself, is this for the sinner, who knows nothing of how God actually works, or is this a backslider, who, after sliding away, is calling all that he knew of the Works to be a lie to satisfy his own reason for leaving.

Hmm. A sinner who knows not of what he is actually Blaspheming against cannot blaspheme with his heart, that is with whole belief, on something he is blind to in the first place. Therefore, blaspheming is dedicated for those who have known God, and have chosen to 'fall away'. They know the way to live right, they have had God to make them aware, and this is only an exit for them. In short, they curse God knowingly to his face, with their heart. The common sinner with little lack in Holiness is capable of committing this act against God. It is not for the sinner.

dont agree ,iv known god,blasphemed to his face,blasphemed against the holy spirit though in words not deeds,the lord said there is only 1 sin that cannot be forgiven,blaspheming against the holy spirit but as said i swore at him and was forgiven though to my utter shame,my deductions of blaspheming the holy spirit is to say he does not exist,to deny him entry into your spirit by disbelief or alliegence to satan

 

[Prima]

Yes, by God, but...well, let's just say I'm working on it

I find it impossible at the moment to forgive those who abuse and torture and rape...perhaps one day I'll be able to, but not right now. I'm not even sure I WANT to be able to.