Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?

[Jeremiahcp]

If it doesn't remain true to its mission, it is better if it vanishes. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Deluge - warnings that were written for us to know what happens to societies that go too far left of God's dictates.

If you don't believe is no problem, neither did the ones who perished in the Deluge, etc.

So your argument is that this forgiving loving god is going to kill everyone for being open minded and tolerant of homosexuals? And I am suppose to what? Consider you a rational person?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The question that I have to ask you is, Can you show as to where in the new testament where that is written at, where you said "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

I can show you at least three times where Jesus said he did not do away with the old law, none of it is done away with until all things have been fulfilled (and there are prophecies even Jesus gave that have no yet been fulfilled), and that anyone who teaches relaxing them shall be among the least in the Kingdom.

Therefore if a person comes to try and beat on me, they are not showing Respect towards meBut I will defend myself.and I will show them, I am not someone who you think you can beat on and do nothing.

I'm not trying to beat on you.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I can show you at least three times where Jesus said he did not do away with the old law, none of it is done away with until all things have been fulfilled (and there are prophecies even Jesus gave that have no yet been fulfilled), and that anyone who teaches relaxing them shall be among the least in the Kingdom.

I'm not trying to beat on you.

That all depends on which law Christ Jesus was referring to ?

Look in Matthew 5:17 Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets". Ok, but here's the question, Jesus didn't say which law that is. But there is law that Jesus is speaking about, and it's not the Ten Commandment law that man teachings will say it is.

Now if you go to the book of Matthew chapter 5 and start reading from Verse 3 to Verse 16 Ok Now in Verse 17 Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets" Ok

Now in Verse 19 Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments
What least commandments, The ones Jesus just gave you back in Verse's 3 to 16. If you break one of these least commandments.

 

[Grandliseur]

So you think that the mission of Christianity is to hate homosexual people?


Sodom and Gomorrah was a story about a city who were punished by God for trying to commit same-sex gang rape of angels who were there as guests.

The lesson you take from that is "don't have same-sex sex" and not, say, "don't rape people" or "treat your guests hospitably?" Really?

Actually that was not the extend of the sin of those cities. Many people make your mistake:

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease was in her and in her daughters, but she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me, and I took them away when I saw it .​

There is no single pointing out of homosexuals. The Bible condemns a wider range of immoral conduct.

If the ones calling themselves Christian began to stop upholding the edicts in scripture, they would no longer be Christian. Thus, any softening of values is not permitted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually that was not the extend of the sin of those cities. Many people make your mistake:

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease was in her and in her daughters, but she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me, and I took them away when I saw it .​

There is no single pointing out of homosexuals. The Bible condemns a wider range of immoral conduct.

If the ones calling themselves Christian began to stop upholding the edicts in scripture, they would no longer be Christian. Thus, any softening of values is not permitted.

If you think the sin of Sodom was that they failed to help the poor, why did you bring it up in a discussion of homosexuality?

 

[Grandliseur]

That would still make it just as bad, and it's still prejudice against those who do same-sex acts.

There is also the fact a very good deal of Christian behavior comes from passages that say things such as "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

That makes god look terribly weak and impotent. He allegedly gives us free will, yet he knows all including how the future will unfold and also as well he gets very angry and has a history of punishing people here on Earth for using their free will in ways that contradict his will. Only sadistic and cruel authoritarians say "you're free to do as you will, but if you don't do as I like, just remember those two cities and even the entire planet."

When you got a driver's licence you received the right to drive most everywhere you like to - if you obey the rules of the road.
When God gave us free will, it was with the understanding that murder, theft, and other rules governing morality be observed.

As it states, all things are permitted, but not all things are beneficial. You have the right to hop off a 10 story building, but it will not be beneficial when you splash down on the pavement and make a big mess. Similarly, disobedience will bring God's retaliation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When you got a driver's licence you received the right to drive most everywhere you like to - if you obey the rules of the road.
When God gave us free will, it was with the understanding that murder, theft, and other rules governing morality be observed.

As it states, all things are permitted, but not all things are beneficial. You have the right to hop off a 10 story building, but it will not be beneficial when you splash down on the pavement and make a big mess. Similarly, disobedience will bring God's retaliation.

If something is permitted, then there's no official retaliation or punishment when you do it.

 

[Grandliseur]

So your argument is that this forgiving loving god is going to kill everyone for being open minded and tolerant of homosexuals? And I am suppose to what? Consider you a rational person?

When or if you know that the Yellowstone super-volcano is going to destroy large parts of the US on August the 21th, would you try to at least go to Paris so as to survive some time?
God has clearly told us what he is going to do. He is more unstoppable than any super-volcano. If he says - don't do it, he means it. Are you going to challenge his power? Are you going to be able to stop him when he comes to clean up?!

But, people will do what they want. Since there is no hell fire, nothing worse than death - eternal sleep - will result to anyone.

 

[Grandliseur]

If something is permitted, then there's no official retaliation or punishment when you do it.

Is that how you treat gravity, magnetism, etc.? You can disregard gravity, but it will catch up with you. God has told us that certain moral behavior will have consequences. You can do what is forbidden, but the consequences will be enforced.

Again, there is no hell of torment, only eternal sleep for those who disobey. It is each person's choice.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

When or if you know that the Yellowstone super-volcano is going to destroy large parts of the US on August the 21th, would you try to at least go to Paris so as to survive some time?
God has clearly told us what he is going to do. He is more unstoppable than any super-volcano. If he says - don't do it, he means it. Are you going to challenge his power? Are you going to be able to stop him when he comes to clean up?!

But, people will do what they want. Since there is no hell fire, nothing worse than death - eternal sleep - will result to anyone.

"Are you going to challenge his power?"

Obviously. . . . I thought that much would have been easily apparent. Yes, I challenge the power of your god and I'll sit right here waiting for his lighting bolt, at least until I get bored.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Typically, the most bankrupt way to address problematic biblical texts is to pretend that they mean something qualitatively different than what they say. It's an approach that too often smacks of desperation and cowardice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is that how you treat gravity, magnetism, etc.? You can disregard gravity, but it will catch up with you. God has told us that certain moral behavior will have consequences. You can do what is forbidden, but the consequences will be enforced.

Falling due to gravity is a consequence, not a punishment. There's a difference.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Obviously.

Therefore?

Meanwhile, as for the True Christians who'll flock to this thread to defend the purity of their homophobia, the real question will become: Can True Scotsmen move beyond their fallacies.

"Therefore?"

I know from my studies of the Civil Rights movement that a negative disposition towards the LGBTQ community from Christians will likely play a role in driving people away from the religion, whether Christianity is deserving of it or not. It is simple stereotyping, Jay, people will judge the religion based on the loudest image of it.

The world is growing to be more accepting of homosexuals, and I would like to think they are also growing more intolerant of prejudice and bigotry, if any of that is true it could very well have a negative impact on Christianity if the religion can't acclimate quickly enough to these changes. However it is somewhat true, that homosexuality does seem to be playing a part in ending "traditional" Christian views, one way or another.

The truth is that the LGBTQ community won the war against the bigotry in the Christian community a long time ago. It was merely a boulder we had to get rolling and now that is moving it cannot be stopped, my questions is: Can Christians get out of the way of that boulder, or will they get steam rolled? You say "obliviously", but I don't share your confidence, as such social changes take a long time to reach their end and there simply is not enough reliable date to make a dependable prediction of where this is going. I do know one thing, the world is changing and things that can't keep up tend to get left behind.

 

[EverChanging]

I didn't say "suddenly;" in fact, I said a few posts back in that exchange that a change would take time.

And I don't think that every Christian would want to start killing gay people; fringe and dissident Christian groups would be at just as much risk of murder as gay people. Historically, Christianity executes even more "heretics" than it does homosexuals.


And I see it more as a sign that their beliefs are elastic, so I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Christianity won't lose what progress it has made if the strong pressures that resulted in those changes are removed.


Of course. My point is that if we want to figure out what characteristics are intrinsic to a thing, it can be a useful thought exercise to consider what it would be like if external influences were removed. I know full well that nothing exists on its own and everything is influenced by outside factors. This is just a thought exercise.

If we somehow majorly regressed as a society, then sure -- I definitely think Christian organizations that have softened their stance for political reasons but who still promote homophobia could revert to killing us. But my point is that some progressive sects have so thoroughly internalized pro-LGBT values that if they began murdering gays that perhaps even groups with no such history would as well. More likely, as you said, such progressive groups in such a scenario become victims themselves. My main point is that significant chunks of the Christian world have not merely softened their stance out of expediency -- even if it began that way -- but have truly evolved and sincerely internalized different values. Some small denominations I could name have never even had a history of not performing same-sex marriages, and I am not just talking about predominantly gay churches. The Open Episcopal Church is one radical example.

 

[columbus]

God has clearly told us what he is going to do.

There is no god who has ever done any such thing.

You claiming that your personal opinion is God's opinion is not at all the same.
Tom

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The world is growing to be more accepting of homosexuals, and I would like to think they are also growing more intolerant of prejudice and bigotry, if any of that is true it could very well have a negative impact on Christianity if the religion can't acclimate quickly enough to these changes. However it is somewhat true, that homosexuality does seem to be playing a part in ending "traditional" Christian views, one way or another.

True. Christian (and Jewish) denominations will either change or become increasingly marginalized. But your original questions was:

Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?​

and I continue to suggest that current experience suggests that the answer is yes.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

True. Christian (and Jewish) denominations will either change or become increasingly marginalized. But your original questions was:

Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?​

and I continue to suggest that current experience suggests that the answer is yes.

The statistical data I posted earlier in this thread suggest that Jewish communities are adopting acceptance of the LGBTQ community much more easily and quickly than Christian communities. I think there might be something within Jewish customs that is lacking or diminished in Christian customs. Just to clarify I am not grouping the two together.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

To be honest, Christians should be thanking the LGBTQ community for making their religion better and moving them closer to that path of love and forgiveness.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When you got a driver's licence you received the right to drive most everywhere you like to - if you obey the rules of the road.

Having laws to be observed inherently means you do not have the freedom to do as you will. And, honestly, what's the point of having free will if you're going to be punished for using it?

When God gave us free will, it was with the understanding that murder, theft, and other rules governing morality be observed.

Then why did god make it where some people have no conscience and can kill with ease, why does he permit holocausts and genocides, and so many people being put into a position of steal food or starve?

Similarly, disobedience will bring God's retaliation.

Is god so petty that he has to punish people and retaliate against them in this life and the next?

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

When or if you know that the Yellowstone super-volcano is going to destroy large parts of the US on August the 21th, would you try to at least go to Paris so as to survive some time?
God has clearly told us what he is going to do. He is more unstoppable than any super-volcano. If he says - don't do it, he means it. Are you going to challenge his power? Are you going to be able to stop him when he comes to clean up?!

But, people will do what they want. Since there is no hell fire, nothing worse than death - eternal sleep - will result to anyone.

Sure dude, see you here on the 22nd of August! The drinks are on me!