Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?

[Quintessence]

This is not relevant to the thread; the topic of this thread is not your personal beef with me.

It seems to me that if this topic has gotten derailed by personal beefs, that's on you. As I've said, I have no personal beef with you. That problem seems to be on your end. If you stop treating others like they are some sort of enemy, problem would be solved pretty much instantly. You get out of a conversation what you put into one. It's not hard to alter the course, but at this point, ball is in your court.

Speaking of "not hard," it's not hard to get me to stop responding. All that takes is for you not to respond to this post with more rubbish that does not reflect what I think. Not hard.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I don't worship Moses, nor Paul.

Cool story

 

[SinSaber]

What happened to accepting differences? If you don't want to listen to our beliefs, don't. The fact that you let yourself be agitated is proof that you care too much about what others think of you.

I asked a simpler question. Guess what happened: the only gay respondent said he was completely fine with my belief. And everyone ignored him

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Sure, I'm optimistic a majority of the church is capable of change, I'd say it already is changing where I live. Transgender People Welcomed by The Church of England Not enough for you? Have a look here then. List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT - Wikipedia
Even conservative Christians are prepared to change their thinking about long held beliefs that used to be thought of as "fundamental". http://rethinkinghell.com/ The holy spirit seems to have a habit of revealing truth to the faithful that aligns with secular thinking, almost as though secular thinking is more grown up and just than "biblical" thinking (I know, crazy talk right?).
Anyhoo, the church was founded by a man who never got married and hung out with twelve dudes all the time, I mean work it out for yourselves...

 

[SinSaber]

Sure, I'm optimistic a majority of the church is capable of change, I'd say it already is changing where I live. Transgender People Welcomed by The Church of England Not enough for you? Have a look here then. List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT - Wikipedia
Even conservative Christians are prepared to change their thinking about long held beliefs that used to be thought of as "fundamental". Rethinking Hell The holy spirit seems to have a habit of revealing truth to the faithful that aligns with secular thinking, almost as though secular thinking is more grown up and just than "biblical" thinking (I know, crazy talk right?).
Anyhoo, the church was founded by a man who never got married and hung out with twelve dudes all the time, I mean work it out for yourselves...

.

So all priests are gay is your logic. All buddhist monks are gay is your logic.

Christ was also around Mary, Mary, and Lazarus' sisters.

Just because something changes doesn't mean it's right just because you perceive yourself as the moral high ground. Your words are also very judgemental

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

.

So all priests are gay is your logic. All buddhist monks are gay is your logic.

Christ was also around Mary, Mary, and Lazarus' sisters.

Just because something changes doesn't mean it's right just because you perceive yourself as the moral high ground. Your words are also very judgemental

My post was meant to be gently mocking mate, not everything I write is to be taken seriously (the clue is in my username). As it happens I suspect there is a higher proportion of gay people in the clergy than in the general population, Homosexual clergy in the Catholic Church - Wikipedia How the Catholic Priesthood Became an Unlikely Haven for Many Gay Men
Why would it matter if Jesus was gay anyway? Even if you are a Christian the main thing is his teaching, not who he had sex with (if he did have sex) surely? There are no prophecies that the messiah would be heterosexual that I'm aware of.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But yet the bible which was written so long ago, Yet is found in describing how people to day would be taking God's word lightly

That's because, as the authors opine, people weren't believing them. It's like when prophets on the internet get mad that people aren't believing THEM.

trying to put logic and reason over what is written in the scriptures.

A badly written text is a badly written text. I'm sorry your God can't write anything better than inconsistent characterizations, anachronistic plots and settings, grossly immoral plots and laws, and ADHD attention to detail.

Can homosexualls move Beyond it's inherent christianphobia?

Christians kill gays. Do gays kill Christians?

Cool story

If God told you Moses and Paul were incorrect, Whose words would you prefer? Be honest.

Guess what happened: the only gay respondent said he was completely fine with my belief. And everyone ignored him

You can think whatever you want. You just can't legislate it.

Christ was also around Mary

Are you implying Jesus got on with his ... wait, he DID impregnate her with himself so ...?

 

[SalixIncendium]

If God told you Moses and Paul were incorrect, Whose words would you prefer? Be honest.

By "God", are you referring to my god or the Christian God? If it was the former, I would believe him. If it was the latter, I'd begin to question my sanity because that God has never uttered a word to me.

 

[Faithofchristian]

A view from a non-Christian

As the word "homophobia" is regarded today it can mean several things; an

"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals"
Source: Merriam-Webster​

So, my first question would be, which of these is one addressing?

"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality" [homosexual activities]
OR
"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuals" [people who are exclusively sexually attracted to people of their own sex.]
​

As for the Bible, it focuses on the activity rather than the attraction.

Romans 1:26-27
26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9-10 Surely you know that people who do wrong will not get to enjoy God’s kingdom. Don’t be fooled. These are the people who will not get to enjoy his kingdom: those who sin sexually, those who worship idols, those who commit adultery, men who let other men use them for sex or who have sex with other men, those who steal, those who are greedy, those who drink too much, those who abuse others with insults, and those who cheat.

Leviticus 18:22
22 “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!

Leviticus 20:13
13 “If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

1 Corinthians7:2
But sexual sin is a danger, so each man should enjoy his own wife, and each woman should enjoy her own husband.
[Not quite on point, but close enough I think.]
​

Therefore, as I read it the Bible it evidently doesn't care if "people. . . are exclusively sexually attracted to people of their own sex," although, it does very much care if one engages in homosexual activities. So if there's going to be any homophobia going on it should be limited to "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against" the activity. Perhaps one of those "hate the sin and not the sinner" things. If a homosexual doesn't have same sex engagements, I assume he's pretty much home free as far as committing any sexual sin, and should not be feared, averted, or discriminated against. In which case homophobia would be an asinine reaction.

So the question is, to what extent should the good Christian visit his fear, aversion, and discrimination on the practicing homosexual?
As I see it, if one is committed to abiding by the Bible, especially Lev. 20:13, it isn't enough to let god handle the matter, but one should put such people (men anyway) to death. However, if one feels Christians are no longer bound by OT laws not reiterated in the NT then to what extent should the good Christian act on his fears, aversions, and discrimination against the practicing homosexual?

In fairness to homosexuals, who according to all the studies I'm aware of, do not choose their sexual orientation, the question has to be asked: should it really be expected that they reign in their sexual urges? Although for some inexplicable reason the Bible really hates such goings-on, when it comes right down to the nuts and bolts of homosexual activity one has to wonder: why this hatred of two consenting people doing X with each other? From what I've read of the Bible it doesn't give any reason other than: god doesn't like it.

And despite this groundless regard for homosexual activities (no reasons are given) the Bible has instilled homophobia---fear, aversion, and discrimination---in its believers. So, how much does the good Christian want to follow this irrational homophobia?

My answer would be to ask oneself how fair is it to hold against them the right to express their unbidden sexual urges just because they're different from one's own? Do practicing homosexuals deserve to be discriminated against simply because they happened to have developed differently than most others? If you feel the Bible is inviolate then I assume you do feel your homophobia is well grounded. However, as a matter of loving fairness exactly how just is this?

From where I sit looking at the OP question, "Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia," my answer would be, in large part yes it can---the fundies notwithstanding. And, it will easily survive the growing social acceptance of the LGBTQ community because more and more people are recognizing that LGBTs are just as much an asset to our society as straight folk, and that what they do in the bedroom simply doesn't matter, despite what the Bible says.

Just as an aside. I believe it's issues such as this that are leading to the decline in Christianity in the USA and Canada. People seem to be thinking more on their own, embracing acceptance, and shifting away from the hate of the Bible.


If I may say, what you have is right.

But if I may add one thing, that you didn't mention, that according to what James had written in the book of James.

Let's I look upon something and I lust after it that I want it, there's no harm in that. But some would say, your committing a sin.

.

That's because, as the authors opine, people weren't believing them. It's like when prophets on the internet get mad that people aren't believing THEM.


A badly written text is a badly written text. I'm sorry your God can't write anything better than inconsistent characterizations, anachronistic plots and settings, grossly immoral plots and laws, and ADHD attention to detail.


Christians kill gays. Do gays kill Christians?


If God told you Moses and Paul were incorrect, Whose words would you prefer? Be honest.


You can think whatever you want. You just can't legislate it.


Are you implying Jesus got on with his ... wait, he DID impregnate her with himself so ...?

That's because, as the authors opine, people weren't believing them. It's like when prophets on the internet get mad that people aren't believing THEM.


A badly written text is a badly written text. I'm sorry your God can't write anything better than inconsistent characterizations, anachronistic plots and settings, grossly immoral plots and laws, and ADHD attention to detail.


Christians kill gays. Do gays kill Christians?


If God told you Moses and Paul were incorrect, Whose words would you prefer? Be honest.


You can think whatever you want. You just can't legislate it.


Are you implying Jesus got on with his ... wait, he DID impregnate her with himself so ...?

To answer the question, Do Christians kill gays, No they are not to kill gays or anyone else, Except in self defense.
There is no where in the new testament that Promote's the killing of gays or anyone else.
Disciple Paul wrote in Romans 1:27-32, Notice that those who commit such as man laying with man. As he would a woman are worthy of death.
Notice ( are worth of death) Paul did not say when, only they are worthy of death?

Let's for say, that you are worthy of a scholarship, It does not say when your worthy of the scholarship. Only you are worthy of one.
But if you keep going in the direction your going then you are worthy of the scholarship.

So those who commit such as man laying with man as he would a woman, if they keep going in that direction are worthy of death.

When does this death take place, At the Judgement of God. Only God will decide who is worthy of death and who is not worthy of death. At His Judgement Bar.

 

[EverChanging]

While that is true, we are still told, in the Bible, that a man who lies with man as he would a woman is to be put to death.

That is probably more an example of misogyny than homophobia: they are killed for subverting patriarchal gender roles and treating a man as a woman. Women who commit such acts are not mentioned; in such a case they would not be treating men as women.

 

[EverChanging]

I don't either. The extrinsic factors that got observant Christians - and Christian churches themselves - to stop their practice of executing homosexual people in the name of their religion aren't likely to go away any time soon.

... but those factors are extrinsic. Religions tend to become more moderate when they lose their power and when they have to actually work with people of differing beliefs. Take away those outside factors and we'd see the equilibrium we have now shift to a new equilibrium that has much worse consequences for LGBT people.

Removing extrinsic factors restraining violence against LGBT people probably would lead to increased violence against us. But that doesn't mean all of the more liberal groups of Christians that have become LGBT-affirming and include us among laity and clergy would suddenly do a 360 and start killing us. They have already changed their mindset, their theology, their practices, and in some cases their canon laws and liturgies, often to the detriment of their organizations given the schisms that arose. I don't see them going back. And it doesn't matter if the changes came due to secular society; much of our behavior arises from extrinsic factors after all.

 

[Faithofchristian]

That is probably more an example of misogyny than homophobia: they are killed for subverting patriarchal gender roles and treating a man as a woman. Women who commit such acts are not mentioned; in such a case they would not be treating men as women.

I can see you have no understanding. You really believe that God would be unfair in his judgement.to exclude women.
No Everyone will be included, whether man or woman all will be treated fairly and judge fairly.No one will be left out.

Otherwise men could say, God is unfair in his Judgement. Not to include women. No all will be included.
Ok let's break down man
Man being plural meaning mankind. If I'm not wrong women are apart of mankind, So that would include women also.
So No matter how you try to cut it, it still goes both ways.
Look Christ Jesus is the Son of man. Man being plural, meaning Mankind, Son of mankind.

 

[Grandliseur]

Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia? And if it can't will it survive the growing social acceptance of the LGBTQ community?

*** In this context homophobia should be viewed as prejudice towards the LGBTQ community.


***EDIT to help avoid the confusion I can already see setting in:

Just to clarify a bit:

The fact that some have been able to move beyond the homophobia does not mean the whole will. It does suggest the possibility, which is what the inquiry of the OP is about. I know some of you feel the need to ride in on a white horse to defend Christianity, but such religions are very much a hot spot for homophobia, likely because of their teachings and the question is: Can Christianity move beyond this limitation?

If it doesn't remain true to its mission, it is better if it vanishes. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Deluge - warnings that were written for us to know what happens to societies that go too far left of God's dictates.

If you don't believe is no problem, neither did the ones who perished in the Deluge, etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Removing extrinsic factors restraining violence against LGBT people probably would lead to increased violence against us. But that doesn't mean all of the more liberal groups of Christians that have become LGBT-affirming and include us among laity and clergy would suddenly do a 360 and start killing us.

I didn't say "suddenly;" in fact, I said a few posts back in that exchange that a change would take time.

And I don't think that every Christian would want to start killing gay people; fringe and dissident Christian groups would be at just as much risk of murder as gay people. Historically, Christianity executes even more "heretics" than it does homosexuals.

They have already changed their mindset, their theology, their practices, and in some cases their canon laws and liturgies, often to the detriment of their organizations given the schisms that arose. I don't see them going back.

And I see it more as a sign that their beliefs are elastic, so I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Christianity won't lose what progress it has made if the strong pressures that resulted in those changes are removed.

And it doesn't matter if the changes came due to secular society; much of our behavior arises from extrinsic factors after all.

Of course. My point is that if we want to figure out what characteristics are intrinsic to a thing, it can be a useful thought exercise to consider what it would be like if external influences were removed. I know full well that nothing exists on its own and everything is influenced by outside factors. This is just a thought exercise.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If it doesn't remain true to its mission, it is better if it vanishes.

So you think that the mission of Christianity is to hate homosexual people?

Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Deluge - warnings that were written for us to know what happens to societies that go too far left of God's dictates.

Sodom and Gomorrah was a story about a city who were punished by God for trying to commit same-sex gang rape of angels who were there as guests.

The lesson you take from that is "don't have same-sex sex" and not, say, "don't rape people" or "treat your guests hospitably?" Really?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is probably more an example of misogyny than homophobia:

That would still make it just as bad, and it's still prejudice against those who do same-sex acts.

much of our behavior arises from extrinsic factors after all.

There is also the fact a very good deal of Christian behavior comes from passages that say things such as "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

If it doesn't remain true to its mission, it is better if it vanishes. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Deluge - warnings that were written for us to know what happens to societies that go too far left of God's dictates.

That makes god look terribly weak and impotent. He allegedly gives us free will, yet he knows all including how the future will unfold and also as well he gets very angry and has a history of punishing people here on Earth for using their free will in ways that contradict his will. Only sadistic and cruel authoritarians say "you're free to do as you will, but if you don't do as I like, just remember those two cities and even the entire planet."

 

[Faithofchristian]

So you think that the mission of Christianity is to hate homosexual people?


Sodom and Gomorrah was a story about a city who were punished by God for trying to commit same-sex gang rape of angels who were there as guests.

The lesson you take from that is "don't have same-sex sex" and not, say, "don't rape people" or "treat your guests hospitably?" Really?

I don't know who your speaking to, but if I may say.
No the mission of Christianity is not to hate homosexualit. The mission of Christianity is to help people to over come homosexualit and to warn them of the soon coming Judgement and the danger of what homosexualit will lead to.

But if a homosexual wants to continue on their life style, that's totally up to them,
I did what was required of me to do.and that's as far as it goes, Now their on their own.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know who your speaking to,

I was speaking to @Grandliseur . You can tell because my post quoted @Grandliseur .

but if I may say.
No the mission of Christianity is not to hate homosexualit. The mission of Christianity is to help people to over come homosexualit and to warn them of the soon coming Judgement and the danger of what homosexualit will lead to.

But if a homosexual wants to continue on their life style, that's totally up to them,
I did what was required of me to do.and that's as far as it goes, Now their on their own.

Sounds like your version of Christianity has a somewhat different mission than @Grandliseur's version.

 

[Faithofchristian]

That would still make it just as bad, and it's still prejudice against those who do same-sex acts.

There is also the fact a very good deal of Christian behavior comes from passages that say things such as "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

That makes god look terribly weak and impotent. He allegedly gives us free will, yet he knows all including how the future will unfold and also as well he gets very angry and has a history of punishing people here on Earth for using their free will in ways that contradict his will. Only sadistic and cruel authoritarians say "you're free to do as you will, but if you don't do as I like, just remember those two cities and even the entire planet."

Shadow wolf,
The question that I have to ask you is, Can you show as to where in the new testament where that is written at, where you said "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
Look Christ Jesus said to love those who persecute you. This does not mean, that I am to stand there while they are beating on me, No, To love those, is to show them you will not stand there while they are beating on you, you show them to have respect, If you want Respect then give Respect.

Therefore if a person comes to try and beat on me, they are not showing Respect towards me, But I will defend myself.and I will show them, I am not someone who you think you can beat on and do nothing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But if a homosexual wants to continue on their life style, that's totally up to them,

What "life style?" One of my friends who is lesbian, her relationship, despite it being with another woman, is an incredibly normal relationship.