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"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? " John 8:46
- Thread starter Shermana
- Start date
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
NWT John 8:46 Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me?
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
46 [a]Which of you can rebuke me of sin? and if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
American Standard Version (ASV)
46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?
English Standard Version (ESV)
46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Youngs Literal
46 Who of you doth convict me of sin? and if I speak truth, wherefore do ye not believe me?
New King James Version (NKJV)
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
Which bible version uses the phrase "can you prove me guilty of sin?"
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
46 [a]Which of you can rebuke me of sin? and if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
American Standard Version (ASV)
46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?
English Standard Version (ESV)
46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Youngs Literal
46 Who of you doth convict me of sin? and if I speak truth, wherefore do ye not believe me?
New King James Version (NKJV)
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
Which bible version uses the phrase "can you prove me guilty of sin?"
Muffled
Jesus in me
He is simply using the meaning of the word "convict."
con·vict verb \kən-ˈvikt\ law : to prove that someone is guilty of a crime in a court of law (Source Merriam Webster's Dictionary)
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I want to complain about the difficulty of this question.
This is one of the most difficult passages in the entire NT. The question, to me, becomes why he claims God as his father but not theirs? Why is he 'Before Abraham was' but not them? Jesus repeats his accusation that the Pharisees are vipers, sons of the original liar and the original murderer. He says they can't receive truth, because there isn't 'Any truth in them'. This is hard to understand without referring to the letter 1st John (same author 1 John 1:8) which uses the exact same phrase, so now we are involving yet another John. (Now we are dealing with 3 Johns) Jesus considers no man to be perfect and all to be liars. He works to undermine the claim of these men to being the true sons of Abraham and also anyone's claim to it. He attacks all claims to that, not just theirs.
The whole thing is extremely slow reading, like learning a new language. Now we have to refer back to the gospel of John chapter 1 where John the Baptist (so many john's its confusing) is describing the cosmos in which Jesus conversation with the Pharisees exists! In this cosmos Jesus or his ministry is the light of creation. Now tell me, how were the Pharisees expected to know about that cosmology? Its ridiculous to think that they could have -- unless they already believed in a similar cosmology. Did John-the-Baptist explain it to them, already? Did they invent it? We are entering into material that relatively few people ever discuss. "What was the cosmology of the Pharisees and of Jesus?" I don't even know whether scholars address it outside of those in niche religious groups. Who is an expert on it? Am I? Are you?
This is one of the most difficult passages in the entire NT. The question, to me, becomes why he claims God as his father but not theirs? Why is he 'Before Abraham was' but not them? Jesus repeats his accusation that the Pharisees are vipers, sons of the original liar and the original murderer. He says they can't receive truth, because there isn't 'Any truth in them'. This is hard to understand without referring to the letter 1st John (same author 1 John 1:8) which uses the exact same phrase, so now we are involving yet another John. (Now we are dealing with 3 Johns) Jesus considers no man to be perfect and all to be liars. He works to undermine the claim of these men to being the true sons of Abraham and also anyone's claim to it. He attacks all claims to that, not just theirs.
The whole thing is extremely slow reading, like learning a new language. Now we have to refer back to the gospel of John chapter 1 where John the Baptist (so many john's its confusing) is describing the cosmos in which Jesus conversation with the Pharisees exists! In this cosmos Jesus or his ministry is the light of creation. Now tell me, how were the Pharisees expected to know about that cosmology? Its ridiculous to think that they could have -- unless they already believed in a similar cosmology. Did John-the-Baptist explain it to them, already? Did they invent it? We are entering into material that relatively few people ever discuss. "What was the cosmology of the Pharisees and of Jesus?" I don't even know whether scholars address it outside of those in niche religious groups. Who is an expert on it? Am I? Are you?
Jesus did not come about sin. He came about life. Does the question he asked them mean "What about you (believes) I am for exposing sin?" By their father (vs 44) it had become their job to expose sin. Jesus was asking them why did they think he would come like them?
Which one of you exposes me (as one) concerning sin (like you) factually truth I speak the reason (their obsession with sin) why you do not believe me John 8:46
They had become like Ham who was for exposing his father. They were for making sin known so the people knew what to avoid. Jesus is for making love known so the people would know what to seek.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Nobody can prove anyone else guilty of sin -- to the guilty party's satisfaction, that is -- until the holy spirit of God convicts them and they acknowledge that conviction. Courts of law, of course, can prove to their OWN satisfaction that someone is a lawbreaker; and even Jesus was so convicted.
How so? There's nothing there that says "can", "prove", "is able", or anything else that would suggest Jesus is asking who can/is able to convict him: τίς ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐλέγχει με περὶ ἁμαρτίας/"who from out of you all convicts me with respect to sin?"
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Socratic method.
It does not say who convicts me of sin. It says who convicts me about sin.
Strong's Greek: 4012. ???? (peri) -- about, concerning, around (denotes place, cause or subject)
Definition
about, concerning, around (denotes place, cause or subject)
NASB Translation
about (103), about* (1), against (4), all around (1), around (12), around* (1), because (2), behalf (4), case* (1), cause* (1), circumstances* (1), companions* (1), concerning (48), condition* (1), connection (2), followers* (1), help (1), neighborhood (1), over (1), over...about (1), refers (1), regard (3), regarding (4), vicinity (1).
Strong's Greek: 4012. ???? (peri) -- about, concerning, around (denotes place, cause or subject)
Definition
about, concerning, around (denotes place, cause or subject)
NASB Translation
about (103), about* (1), against (4), all around (1), around (12), around* (1), because (2), behalf (4), case* (1), cause* (1), circumstances* (1), companions* (1), concerning (48), condition* (1), connection (2), followers* (1), help (1), neighborhood (1), over (1), over...about (1), refers (1), regard (3), regarding (4), vicinity (1).
Who believes it is about sin that Jesus has come?
What peri means is not only highly abstract (it's a preposition) but also depends upon the case of the NP it governs (here, that would be the genitive).
I do not know if you are disagreeing. I see the list of possibilities. "Of" is not on the list.
Shermana
Heretic
So then do you think the context is "Which of you is doing the convicting" rather than "Which of you is able to"? I would find that odd. I may not know much beyond basic Greek, but I would imagine that sometimes there's more to identifying it than just the word choice alone, just as in other languages.
What do you think Jesus is saying, Legion? I would highly doubt he's simply asking "Which one of you has a problem here" in respect to the rest of the passage. Perhaps "Convicts" carries a connotation of "Has a just reason and is thus able to lay a proper and justified conviction because of a thoroughly adequate claim" rather than just "Attempting to".
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Shermana
Heretic
Been over this over and over and over again. I can even direct you to threads where this heated issue has been addressed til the cows come home.
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Jn8_58.html
He is declaring to have existed since before Abraham, most likely referring to his pre-existent state as the Logos. Which is why even Prominent Trinitarian professors Goodspeed, Moffatt preferred "I have been". The Jews proceeded to pick up stones because he was essentially declaring himself to be "A god" by saying he existed since even before Abraham. Which is why his official charge was not for claiming to be God but the SON of god.
I am well prepared to defend this position in case you were planning on just brushing it off which I somehow am expecting to be the case.
And for some reason the Beggar was not condemned as blasphemous when he said "Ego Eimi" in John 9:9.
And of course, Jesus was not declaring to BE "I am" (Which the name is actually "I shall be", not the immediate present "I am), or he would have said "I am I am".
I am not an expert, but I would say it's quite obvious who is being immature here.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Was this addressed to me? If so, I didn't communicate very well to you. Substitute the word "convince" for "convict". I was not quoting scripture, so you may do so freely. Until God convinces us that we are sinners, we go around convinced that we are not. That is what I was getting at.
Thank you for asking. No it wasn't addressed to you. I think you made a good point.
My point was that Jesus probably did not say "who convicts me of sin" but said "who believes I came about sin". Many people still believe he came about sin. Why, do you think, would he do that?
THE EXTERMINATOR has arrived. Not!
It's not context. It's what's written. To say "which of you" would require no more than tis humon but instead we have tis ex humon. It means more literally "which one out of y'all" (only in certain English speaking regions does English have an informal second person plural construction). More importantly, Greek is rather unique among IE languages of the time in that in addition to a fully developed mood system (where verbal morphology indicated grammatically what aux. verbs do in English- can, may, might, could, would, etc.), Greek has a weakly develop modal verb system. I did my senior thesis on the Greek grammaticization of modality. To say "which of you is able/can" could be done in a rather large number of ways. Instead, we find a preposition that makes that interpretation different and nothing to suggest it is correct. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by context.
I think it's a rhetorical question and part of the rhetoric (in the classical sense) of the passage. The author has Jesus contrasting the lies of the liars that won't listen with what Jesus himself says and is. The word for "sin", ἁμαρτία, is a word that meant to err, miss, go astray, etc. "In Johannine usage ἁ[μαρτία] is conceived as a condition or characteristic quality, sinfulness, and is opposed to ἀλήθεια" (from the BDAG). Aletheia means "truth". The contrast referenced in the BDAG is between sin and truth, and therefore between Jesus as a liar (one who sins) and Jesus as a speaker of the truth. In this passage in John, then, Jesus is making the point that if people don't believe him they are accusing him of being a sinner. By asking, rhetorically, "which one of you is convicts me of sin?" he's drawing more attention to lines uttered immediately before and after that contrast his words and their words, truth and lies.
Generally speaking, one doesn't define a word by using that word. The verb means something like convict, not something like "attempt to".
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Searching...
Perhaps you are talking about
John 16
[7] Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[9] Of sin, because they believe not on me;
[10] Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
[11] Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
The word used in the KJV is "reprove".
That's all I can find on the subject. Is that what you're talking about? Or is it
John 8
[46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
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